[DUG] Seattle questions
Jolyon Direnko-Smith
jsmith at deltics.co.nz
Mon Apr 11 20:21:03 NZST 2016
Um, John.... Delphi has had zero terminated strings since Delphi 2 and
still does. They are zero-terminated AND they have a payload descriptor
which specifies the length. This can actually lead to problems when a
string is both terminated by a zero but also ends up CONTAINING a zero
(i.e. an additional zero within the string length described for the string,
BEFORE the terminating zero).
Surveys don't mean anything when it comes to credibility. TIOBE in
particular (not a survey incidentally, but an automated index) is
poo-poohed when it shows Delphi in decline but is suddenly now reliable?
And there was a recent bit of an upset when someone (at Embarcadero but
supposedly with no particular axe to grind... yeah right) managed to
finally get the TIOBE index to count "Object Pascal" in the Delphi numbers,
something which some parts of the Delphi community have always claimed was
why Delphi was under-represented in that index. So as of February this
year, Object Pascal does now count towards Delphi (even though there is a
LOT of non-Delphi Object Pascal activity) and the difference it made was
... negligible. In fact, no difference at all, despite some people posting
some spurious comparative claims about performance in the last 12 months
(in the TIOBE index). A proper analysis of TIOBE shows no such thing
unfortunately.
On the ground I can say that Delphi skills are in shorter supply (in NZ)
than ever as the result of there being no new "intake" and the old guard
continuing to drift away (or retire). And as well as corporates not having
heard of Delphi or believing it to be "out of business", there are also
many who do know full well what the current state of affairs is and for
precisely those reasons are actively engaged in removing it, and their
dependency on it from their businesses.
It is difficult to think of Delphi "still going strong" when it is hardly
"strong" now. However, I doubt it will ever disappear. Programming
languages never really die. Even Gupta, PowerBuilder and Omnis are still
going after all these years, supported by eye-watering prices (if you need
to ask you can't afford it) paid by a tiny user base (sound familiar?).
Consider that the cost of a new user Delphi "Ultimate" license is now over
NZ$10,000. You don't need to sell many of those to make a bit of money.
Which is a good thing, because you won't (sell many that is).
As for outliving C# for the reasons you gave. I think Pascal will
absolutely live on, so Wirth's legacy is secure. FreePascal is getting a
LOT of attention these days, not least on the back of the popularity of
devices like the Raspberry Pi, which you can use FreePascal on. Even
Lazarus, the Delphi-like IDE. But the Delphi incarnation of Pascal .. ?
I'm not so sure. Certainly not for the reasons you mention.
C# is now also "officially" cross platform and could be argued to have been
so for a long time (thinking of Mono in general and Xamarin more recently
in particular) and in a far more complete and robust fashion than
FireMonkey. .NET core is a "natively cross-platform" framework, rather
than a lowest common denominator cross platform runtime environment "bolted
on" and reliant on on-going support from the underlying platforms for the
approach to even remain viable. If Google ever decide to end of life the
NDK (e.g. if they decide that the Java SDK + ART delivers all the
performance that developers need) then FireMonkey has no place to go on
Android. For example.
If nothing else, Delphi faces a problem in being proprietary to
Embarcadero. With Microsoft now embracing Open Source, expensive
proprietary, closed systems such as Delphi look increasingly out of place.
Worth noting is that FreePascal is also open source, also cross-platform
and has been for longer than Delphi and supports many more platforms than
Delphi.
Apologies if this comes across as doom or nay saying but if Delphi is to be
assessed properly in the current context then we need to make sure we are
properly across that context and not looking at it through rose tinted
specs.
On 11 April 2016 at 16:33, John Bird <johnkbird at paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> My perspective, and its a partial one. But I work in a house using both
> XE8/Seattle and C#
>
> Q1 – XE8 is fine (our current production version) and all the comments
> about Seattle I have heard are good – large projects more stable in
> particular.
>
> Q2
>
> · Which is more effective at producing finished product. (Faster
> to market)
>
> Both are fast – Delphi compiler and single file deploy is still very hard
> to beat.
>
> · Which is more effective at meeting customer’s needs. (Faster
> customisations)
>
> Everyones opinion will differ on this
>
> · Solution performance. Which is better. (How snappy is the
> solution to use)
>
> Delphi performance is hard to beat. A lot of .NET is also very good
> these days. But not all.
>
> · Security. Which is better. (.NET seems inherently flawed in
> this respect)
>
> Delphi does not have zero terminated strings – this has to be a huge
> advantage as buffer overflows in strings are likely the main security
> weakness in C family of products. Runtime languages such as .NET and Java
> have a spotty reputation too. Security is ultimately much more than the
> language, but to my eyes Delphi starts with less weakness.
>
> · Deployment. Which is easier?
>
> Single file vs a folder structure of hundreds of files – and the issue of
> figuring which files of those files to deploy for a new version.
>
> · Does the Delphi team sit comfortably alongside the .NET team ?
>
> Yup, 3 teams using both. Each team prefers one or other, but uses
> both. Remember Anders Hejlsberg designed both
>
> · Which product fits better with latest business strategies such
> as IOT and Cloud ?
>
> Everyone’s opinion varies according to what they know and like.
>
>
>
> Q3 – WPF - Yes with differences – merits in both
>
>
>
> Q4 – Credibility - refer surveys – latest TIOBE index has Delphi at Number
> 11, at half to two thirds popularity of C#. Higher than Objective C and
> Swift still. Java, C and C++ are still the biggest
>
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index
>
> Q5 – IOT/Cloud - Delphi does Web Services, IIS and DBs, and cross compiles
> to Win32, Win64, OSX, iOS, Android and linux server soon. Others can add
> more specific cloud points.
>
> Q6 - Where - Europe seems strongest bastion of Delphi, but everywhere.
> Maybe not India – they all want to seem to do SQL Server, C# and Oracle
> there so they can get jobs in California.
>
> Q7 – Cost - Cost is reasonable to me. If it has to be free looks like
> Free Pascal is a decent alternative too - never had to look at it myself.
>
> Q8 – Support - Mainly good. Generally resolve any issues within days or
> hours – and its usually the way I’m doing it that is at fault
>
> Q9 – Developers - Mainly older developers tis true. But only mainly.
> Some of them think that Delphi may still be going strong when C# fades from
> popularity – mainly for the reasons of:
>
> a – its a good language (Thanks Nicholas Wirth – designed as a good formal
> teaching language)
>
> b – its already cross platform, so competes with the biggies of C and Java
> with advantages over each.
>
> *From:* Tony Blomfield <tonyb at precepthealth.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 11, 2016 1:21 PM
> *To:* NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
> <delphi at listserver.123.net.nz>
> *Subject:* [DUG] Seattle questions
>
>
> I hope the group does not mind me asking a few business oriented questions
> about Seattle.
>
>
>
> I have had Seattle since its original release, but so far have not used
> it. I have become quite cynical about Delphi as a result of my XE2
> experiences.
>
>
>
> 1. I’d like to hear from anyone that is using Seattle in full
> production, general thoughts about its features, and productivity.
>
>
>
> 2. If there is anyone also using .NET? It would be particularly
> useful if they could compare from a *Business perspective* the pro’s and
> cons. For example.
>
>
>
> · Which is more effective at producing finished product. (Faster
> to market)
>
> · Which is more effective at meeting customer’s needs. (Faster
> customisations)
>
> · Solution performance. Which is better. (How snappy is the
> solution to use)
>
> · Security. Which is better. (.NET seems inherently flawed in
> this respect)
>
> · Deployment. Which is easier?
>
> · Does the Delphi team sit comfortably alongside the .NET team ?
>
> · Which product fits better with latest business strategies such
> as IOT and Cloud ?
>
>
>
>
>
> 3. Does Seattle have any comparative presentation layer to compete
> with WPF ? Does anyone used it ? Does it support well MVVM ?
>
> 4. Market credibility for Delphi is low. Most International
> Corporate clients have never heard of it, and those that have are very
> cynical. How to overcome this marketing hurdle?
>
>
>
> 5. What is the Delphi developers strategy for Cloud deployment ?
>
>
>
> 6. Which country has the greatest penetration of Delphi Seattle ?
> Where are the best developers available ?
>
>
>
> 7. How do you feel about the high cost of Delphi compared to VS ?
>
>
>
> 8. How is the support for Delphi ? User groups, and Embarcadero
> maintenance contract ?
>
>
>
> 9. And finally: How is the market availability of Delphi
> developers these days ?
>
>
>
> Thanks very much,
>
>
>
> Tony
>
>
> ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list
> Post: delphi at listserver.123.net.nz
> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
> Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-request at listserver.123.net.nz with
> Subject: unsubscribe
>
> _______________________________________________
> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list
> Post: delphi at listserver.123.net.nz
> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
> Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-request at listserver.123.net.nz with
> Subject: unsubscribe
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://listserver.123.net.nz/pipermail/delphi/attachments/20160411/78531674/attachment-0001.html
More information about the Delphi
mailing list