<div dir="ltr">Um, John.... Delphi has had zero terminated strings since Delphi 2 and still does. They are zero-terminated AND they have a payload descriptor which specifies the length. This can actually lead to problems when a string is both terminated by a zero but also ends up CONTAINING a zero (i.e. an additional zero within the string length described for the string, BEFORE the terminating zero).<br><br><br>Surveys don't mean anything when it comes to credibility. TIOBE in particular (not a survey incidentally, but an automated index) is poo-poohed when it shows Delphi in decline but is suddenly now reliable? And there was a recent bit of an upset when someone (at Embarcadero but supposedly with no particular axe to grind... yeah right) managed to finally get the TIOBE index to count "Object Pascal" in the Delphi numbers, something which some parts of the Delphi community have always claimed was why Delphi was under-represented in that index. So as of February this year, Object Pascal does now count towards Delphi (even though there is a LOT of non-Delphi Object Pascal activity) and the difference it made was ... negligible. In fact, no difference at all, despite some people posting some spurious comparative claims about performance in the last 12 months (in the TIOBE index). A proper analysis of TIOBE shows no such thing unfortunately.<br><br>On the ground I can say that Delphi skills are in shorter supply (in NZ) than ever as the result of there being no new "intake" and the old guard continuing to drift away (or retire). And as well as corporates not having heard of Delphi or believing it to be "out of business", there are also many who do know full well what the current state of affairs is and for precisely those reasons are actively engaged in removing it, and their dependency on it from their businesses.<br><br>It is difficult to think of Delphi "still going strong" when it is hardly "strong" now. However, I doubt it will ever disappear. Programming languages never really die. Even Gupta, PowerBuilder and Omnis are still going after all these years, supported by eye-watering prices (if you need to ask you can't afford it) paid by a tiny user base (sound familiar?). Consider that the cost of a new user Delphi "Ultimate" license is now over NZ$10,000. You don't need to sell many of those to make a bit of money. Which is a good thing, because you won't (sell many that is).<br><br><br>As for outliving C# for the reasons you gave. I think Pascal will absolutely live on, so Wirth's legacy is secure. FreePascal is getting a LOT of attention these days, not least on the back of the popularity of devices like the Raspberry Pi, which you can use FreePascal on. Even Lazarus, the Delphi-like IDE. But the Delphi incarnation of Pascal .. ? I'm not so sure. Certainly not for the reasons you mention.<br><br>C# is now also "officially" cross platform and could be argued to have been so for a long time (thinking of Mono in general and Xamarin more recently in particular) and in a far more complete and robust fashion than FireMonkey. .NET core is a "natively cross-platform" framework, rather than a lowest common denominator cross platform runtime environment "bolted on" and reliant on on-going support from the underlying platforms for the approach to even remain viable. If Google ever decide to end of life the NDK (e.g. if they decide that the Java SDK + ART delivers all the performance that developers need) then FireMonkey has no place to go on Android. For example.<br><br>If nothing else, Delphi faces a problem in being proprietary to Embarcadero. With Microsoft now embracing Open Source, expensive proprietary, closed systems such as Delphi look increasingly out of place.<br><br>Worth noting is that FreePascal is also open source, also cross-platform and has been for longer than Delphi and supports many more platforms than Delphi.<br><br><div><br></div><div>Apologies if this comes across as doom or nay saying but if Delphi is to be assessed properly in the current context then we need to make sure we are properly across that context and not looking at it through rose tinted specs.</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 11 April 2016 at 16:33, John Bird <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:johnkbird@paradise.net.nz" target="_blank">johnkbird@paradise.net.nz</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-NZ" dir="ltr" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000">
<div>My perspective, and its a partial one. But I work in a house using
both XE8/Seattle and C#</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Q1 – XE8 is fine (our current production version) and all the comments
about Seattle I have heard are good – large projects more stable in
particular.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Q2 </div>
<p><font color="#1f497d"><span><span><font face="Symbol"><font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt">·</font></font><span><font style="FONT-SIZE:7pt">
</font></span></span></span><span><font face="Calibri"><font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt">Which is more effective at producing
finished product. (Faster to market)</font></font></span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d"><span><font face="Calibri">Both are fast – Delphi
compiler and single file deploy is still very hard to
beat.<u></u><u></u></font></span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d"><span><span><font face="Symbol"><font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt">·</font></font><span><font style="FONT-SIZE:7pt">
</font></span></span></span><span><font face="Calibri"><font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt">Which is more effective at meeting
customer’s needs. (Faster customisations)</font></font></span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d"><span><font face="Calibri">Everyones opinion will differ
on this</font></span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d"><span><span><font face="Symbol"><font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt">·</font></font><span><font style="FONT-SIZE:7pt">
</font></span></span></span><span><font face="Calibri"><font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt">Solution performance. Which is
better. (How snappy is the solution to use)</font></font></span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d"><span><font face="Calibri">Delphi performance is hard to
beat. A lot of .NET is also very good these days. But
not all.</font></span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d"><span><span><font face="Symbol"><font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt">·</font></font><span><font style="FONT-SIZE:7pt">
</font></span></span></span><span><font face="Calibri"><font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt">Security. Which is better. (.NET
seems inherently flawed in this respect)</font></font></span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d"><span><font face="Calibri">Delphi does not have zero
terminated strings – this has to be a huge advantage as buffer overflows in
strings are likely the main security weakness in C family of products.
Runtime languages such as .NET and Java have a spotty reputation
too. Security is ultimately much more than the language, but to my
eyes Delphi starts with less weakness.</font></span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d"><span><span><font face="Symbol"><font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt">·</font></font><span><font style="FONT-SIZE:7pt">
</font></span></span></span><span><font face="Calibri"><font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt">Deployment. Which is easier?
</font></font></span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d"><span><font face="Calibri">Single file vs a folder
structure of hundreds of files – and the issue of figuring which files of those
files to deploy for a new version.</font></span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d"><span><span><font face="Symbol"><font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt">·</font></font><span><font style="FONT-SIZE:7pt">
</font></span></span></span><span><font face="Calibri"><font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt">Does the Delphi team sit comfortably
alongside the .NET team ?</font></font></span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d"><span><font face="Calibri">Yup, 3 teams using
both. Each team prefers one or other, but uses both.
Remember Anders Hejlsberg designed both</font></span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d"><span><span><font face="Symbol"><font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt">·</font></font><span><font style="FONT-SIZE:7pt">
</font></span></span></span><span><font face="Calibri"><font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt">Which product fits better with latest
business strategies such as IOT and Cloud ?</font></font></span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d"><span><font face="Calibri">Everyone’s opinion varies
according to what they know and like.</font></span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span></span></font> </p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span>Q3 – WPF - Yes with
differences – merits in both</span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span></span></font> </p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span>Q4 – Credibility - refer
surveys – latest TIOBE index has Delphi at Number 11, at half to two thirds
popularity of C#. Higher than Objective C and Swift still.
Java, C and C++ are still the biggest</span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span></span></font> </p>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div><a title="http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index" href="http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index" target="_blank">http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index</a></div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri">Q5 – IOT/Cloud - Delphi does Web Services, IIS
and DBs, and cross compiles to Win32, Win64, OSX, iOS, Android and linux server
soon. Others can add more specific cloud points.</font></div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri">Q6 - Where - Europe seems strongest bastion
of Delphi, but everywhere. Maybe not India – they all want to seem
to do SQL Server, C# and Oracle there so they can get jobs in
California.</font></div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri">Q7 – Cost - Cost is reasonable to me.
If it has to be free looks like Free Pascal is a decent alternative too - never
had to look at it myself.</font></div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri">Q8 – Support - Mainly good. Generally
resolve any issues within days or hours – and its usually the way I’m doing it
that is at fault</font></div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri">Q9 – Developers - Mainly older developers tis
true. But only mainly. Some of them think that Delphi may
still be going strong when C# fades from popularity – mainly for the reasons
of:</font></div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri">a – its a good language (Thanks Nicholas Wirth –
designed as a good formal teaching language)</font></div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri">b – its already cross platform, so competes with
the biggies of C and Java with advantages over each.</font></div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="tonyb@precepthealth.com" href="mailto:tonyb@precepthealth.com" target="_blank">Tony Blomfield</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 11, 2016 1:21 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="delphi@listserver.123.net.nz" href="mailto:delphi@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi
List</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> [DUG] Seattle questions</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">I
hope the group does not mind me asking a few business oriented questions about
Seattle.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">I
have had Seattle since its original release, but so far have not used it. I have
become quite cynical about Delphi as a result of my XE2
experiences.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><span>1.<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">I’d
like to hear from anyone that is using Seattle in full production, general
thoughts about its features, and productivity.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><span>2.<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">If
there is anyone also using .NET? It would be particularly useful if they could
compare from a <u>Business perspective</u> the pro’s and cons. For
example.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:symbol;COLOR:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Which
is more effective at producing finished product. (Faster to
market)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:symbol;COLOR:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Which
is more effective at meeting customer’s needs. (Faster
customisations)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:symbol;COLOR:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Solution
performance. Which is better. (How snappy is the solution to
use)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:symbol;COLOR:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Security.
Which is better. (.NET seems inherently flawed in this
respect)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:symbol;COLOR:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Deployment.
Which is easier? <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:symbol;COLOR:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Does
the Delphi team sit comfortably alongside the .NET team ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:symbol;COLOR:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Which
product fits better with latest business strategies such as IOT and Cloud
?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><span>3.<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Does
Seattle have any comparative presentation layer to compete with WPF ? Does
anyone used it ? Does it support well MVVM ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><span>4.<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Market
credibility for Delphi is low. Most International Corporate clients have never
heard of it, and those that have are very cynical. How to overcome this
marketing hurdle?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><span>5.<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">What
is the Delphi developers strategy for Cloud deployment ? <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><span>6.<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Which
country has the greatest penetration of Delphi Seattle ? Where are the best
developers available ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><span>7.<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">How
do you feel about the high cost of Delphi compared to VS ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><span>8.<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">How
is the support for Delphi ? User groups, and Embarcadero maintenance contract
?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><span>9.<span style="FONT:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">And
finally: How is the market availability of Delphi developers these days
?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Thanks
very much,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Tony<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p></div></div><font color="#1f497d"></font><font color="#1f497d"></font><font color="#1f497d"></font><font color="#1f497d"></font>
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