[DUG] Apologies (Was RE: Validating CDS files)

Tue Jan 18 15:45:19 NZDT 2011

I'm adding a sense of humor to the situation that seems to be getting out of
hand.  :)

I'll add my dollar and change and be done :)

The DUG should not be a source of your BLOG. taking a simple question about
CDS corruption should have been a simple question and simple answer without
need for detailed analysis.
While many of us here have know each other from Years and Years, that
doesn't mean that sometimes we want help with a basic issue without
detailing confidential sources, or ideas.
I'm far too busy to be active on the DUG often, but I do read it, and reply
where I have opportunity.
to start answering a question well and beyond context, and to then throw out
a link to how it helped you blog something for internet hits is quite weird
to be honest. At a minimum a courtesy to say, that you might blog about it
would be decent, and then allow people to decide if they should continue to
participate in a conversation with you.

if i ask someone to verify that 2+2 = 4, I dont think it matters why I'm
analysing 2 + 2.. It also doesn't matter if 2 + 2 is the correct forumula,
or if there could be a better one. The fact that it might not be relevant to
what someone else things I want to acheive is pointless. That is the
question requiring an answer.

This Argument/Discussion/Commentary has got ridiculous in the extreme.
All the feedback while being potentially positive, and helpful, can also be
negative when you dont let it drop.

you are forgetting one incredibly important fact in all your debating here.
Software Encapsulation. Software Encapsulation and OO allows us to deal with
independant issues and spread a work load out withing needing to understand
the totality.. Encapsulation is just as critical in a group forum. We are
not all university people theorising on stuff that has no commercial value,
or is open to complete public debate.

As a Software Architect I have complete confidence in my designs. I will
take Peer-Review were wanted and paid for. But if I farm out a small
encapsulated project to someone then they SURE AS HECK dont need to know any
more extensive details outside of what I give them. I provide something
requiring a solution. They do not need to know the problem, or the
background.. they simply need to follow the instructions as directed and do
it in the most clear, concise and efficient manner possible for them. IF
they screw up then its encapsulated and easily swapped out and repaired by
someone else.
Software developers that get to know too much can be dangerously ineffective
and time wasting in a real environment. Far too often have I met people that
think they know or can create a better solution.. and then go spend $5000 in
labour solving a 50 dollar problem.

I've seen no character assasinations so far.. but I dont think I've read
every minutae of the conversation.

I've seen you go out of your way many times to assist people here Jolyon,
but then I've also seen you spend inordinate amounts of time debating or
arguing past what was required or necessary to the point of wondering on
whos time you are spending writing all this. and then find that you use this
as material for a blog post.

For me.. I pay myself.. the time is my own.. But if I was an employeer of
1/2 of us sometimes reading this DUG then I'd fire us all if it was on paid
time.

This is completely said with respect to everyone.. because many of us have
become quiet remote friends..

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Jolyon Smith <jsmith at deltics.co.nz> wrote:

> I do hope Kyley’s comments were intended with tongue in cheek.
>
>
>
> Matthew’s comments about people feeling “flamed” surprised and saddened
> me... I was only replying to his messages, and when someone publicly accuses
> me of arrogance and regarding someone as retarded when I absolutely did not,
> I feel entitled to defend myself equally as publicly.
>
>
>
> If that has upset anyone then I apologise, but I certainly don’t understand
> why it should make anyone feel disinclined to post to the list as Matthew
> seems to have been told or indeed why anyone feeling that way didn’t think
> to address me directly with any concerns about any perceived “bad behaviour”
> on the list.
>
>
>
>
>
> I can’t quite believe or understand how or why a well intentioned effort to
> help someone could have been interpreted so wrongly or why it turned into a
> character assassination in the way that it did.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* delphi-bounces at delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-bounces at delphi.org.nz]
> *On Behalf Of *Kyley Harris
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 18 January 2011 13:40
> *To:* NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
> *Subject:* Re: [DUG] Validating CDS files
>
>
>
> I'm wondering if you analyzed your need for popcorn carefullly. You asked
> for popcorn.. you got your popcorn. but perhaps you've been taken for a
> ride. If we analyze your need carefully for an hour, what we could have
> determined is that you truley wanted a 30 minute comedy show, and some salt
> - and -vinegar chips to go with it. Not popcorn at all. Perhaps the desire
> for popcorn stemmed from your not correctly seeing your needs in the first
> place. I feel its my duty to help you access the situtation so that you get
> what you need and not what you want.
>
> We could discuss this further privately, and I'm sure with all my
> experience in these situations that a 3 hour lunch break daily, with said
> included comedies and chips will satisfy your needs more appropriately.. The
> Popcorn is just a bandaid.
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 12:44 PM, David Brennan <
> dugdavid at dbsolutions.co.nz> wrote:
>
> Mmmm, I'm enjoying my popcorn as I watch...
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: delphi-bounces at delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-bounces at delphi.org.nz]
> On
> Behalf Of Matthew Comb
>
> Sent: Tuesday, 18 January 2011 11:12 a.m.
> To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
> Subject: Re: [DUG] Validating CDS files
>
> > Those developers that came back with "TO DO" lists were perhaps
> themselves
> > not taking the time to understand the customers problems.  The customer
> > told
> > them "those 10,000 features are great, but we'd really like X, Y and Z",
> > so
> > the developers simply came back to you with that list of "X, Y and Z".
> >
> > Far from analysing too much, they were most likely not analysing
> *enough*.
>
> What your argument does not take into account yet again (which was my
> point that was missed), is the time and money factor. If you have a 1 day
> or 2 day install, you do not have time to spend all 2 days taking on
> customer requests when the customer is not yet up to speed with the
> capabilities of the system. A customer often doesn't know what they need
> until they get to use the system, then their requirements frequently
> change. If you have unlimited time and money then by all means, spend
> every waking moment analysing each and every item raised, Cameron would
> probably tear his hair out.
>
> >
> >
> > That specialist you hired is most likely looking at the X, Y and Z and
> > then
> > asking the customer... "But what do you need X, Y and Z for?" then
> showing
> > them that they already HAVE X, Y and Z among the 10,000 other features.
> >
> >
> > That quite neatly demonstrates my point I think.  Understand the
> > problem...
> > not only might the solution you are asking for not be ideal, but you
> might
> > already be in possession of the solution !!!
> >
>
> I don't think it does at all.
>
> >
> >
> >   "I have a legacy piece of software which very very rarely corrupts a
> >    local data file - fact"
> >
> > The real problem to be solved is how/why the corruption occurs...
> > everything
> > else is just sticking plaster, not a solution, and even the sticking
> > plaster
> > can only help if you apply the right sort of dressing correctly.
>
> Thats right, that is the root problem, but as this piece of software has
> been in the field for 8 years, and is being decommissioned, there isn't a
> lot of point in that is there. So a bandaid is more than adequate.
>
> >
> >
> >   "Regardless of the better long term solutions, we will take
> >    a defensive programming measure to protect against the loading
> >    of corrupt files."
> >
> > And my point in this area was that unless you understand how/where the
> > corruption is occurring, the defensive measures you might take may very
> > well
> > end up not being defensive at all.
>
> If you validate a CDS file, and don't load it if it is corrupt. That is a
> defensive measure.
>
> >
> > e.g. the idea of checksuming the output from the server...  if the data
> > coming from the server is corrupt from the get-go, then check-summing
> > helps
> > you not one little bit.
> >
>
> Agreed which is why I didn't ask about it.
>
> >
> >
> > You initially blamed the corruption on a flaky wifi connection - highly
> > unlikely for the reasons that I and others have explained.  You then
> > explained that you were streaming the data, so the corruption might occur
> > in
> > sporadic bytes in the stream.
>
> I do not believe I did suggest the contents of the stream would be
> changed. What I said was that a TCP steam can be disconnected.  this was
> yet another wild assumption on your part. If you send a 1GB file through a
> stream, it is NOT as Kyley suggested an All or Nothing approach. You are
> taking bytes into a stream. It is up to you whether or not you discard the
> stream based on a disconnection or not. That decision point is out of my
> control as it is Midas + DBX4MySQL which manages this.
>
> >
> > But then you seemed attracted to the idea of using XML as a potential way
> > forward, which would seem to contradict the streaming nature of the data
> > transmission.
>
> The incorrect assumption you made at the beginnning was that the CDS file
> was coming from the server as a file payload. Its not. The client is
> connecting to MySQL DB server directly. All suggestions and
> misunderstandings about hashing, file downloads, etc were based on that
> incorrect assumption.
>
> >
> > And now you admit:
> >
> >    "I do not know yet where this corruption occurs. DB Server, Drivers,
> >     In Memory, Saving of the file, Server DB."
>
> I don't, and it doesn't matter. Why ? Because at a rate of 1/10000 it is a
> manageable issue, and with the software being decommissioned it is good
> business sense to investigate the server mechanics. its better to bandaid
> and move on.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   "Its not true to take the standpoint that if someone asks for the
> > solution
> >    then they should be able to provide it e.g  If I ask for Word 2010
> > should
> >    I be capable of sitting down and writing the application suite?"
> >
> > I didn't say that they *should* be able to provide it in the sense that
> > you
> > took it to mean - I said as to draw attention to the inherent
> > contradiction.
> > The only way you can confidently ask for a solution in the form of a
> > solution specification, without explaining the problem, is if you fully
> > understand the problem and *could* provide the solution yourself.  In
> > which
> > case, you would never have needed to ask someone else to provide the
> > solution for you.
>
> Thats just rubbish.
>
> >
> > In other words, when someone asks for a solution, rather than stating a
> > problem, the likelihood is that they are asking for the wrong solution
> > from
> > the very start!
>
> Statistically probably correct more often than not, but still an arrogant
> assumption that the person is clueless / uninformed of possible solutions.
>
> Its also arrogant to assume you know everything abou the motivation and
> drivers as to why the person asked the question in the first place.
>
> For example in this case, the fact that the software is being
> decommissioned and the fact that its rarity does not make a server
> solution fiscally viable.
>
> >
> >
> > Your "Word 2010" example this is a quite different sort of request from
> > what
> > we are actually discussing (it's not a "technical solution" just a
> > shopping
> > list), never-the-less even this inappropriate parallel can be used to
> > illustrate the same point:
> >
> >
> > If you ask for Word 2010, should I just sell it to you simply because you
> > can't write it yourself ?
>
> That logic much like the rest of your logic is flawed. I did not say that
> you should sell it to me because I could not program it. You should sell
> it to me because I asked to buy it.
>
> I am asking to buy it, because I don't want to program it.
>
> >
> > Or should I first ask what you need it for.... ?
> >
> > If you tell me you want it for doing bulk emails, and you heard that Word
> > 2010 has some neat mail-merging capabilities, then I am pretty confident
> > that I can sell you a better solution for your needs than just handing
> > over
> > a copy of Word 2010.
>
> Again you are incorrectly assuming that the person asking the question is
> a retard.
>
> >
> > I could just give you what you want, but that may not be what you need.
> >
>
> Its not your decision to make.
>
> >
> > Incidentally, nobody "gave me" a blog.  I created my blog in order to
> > share
> > my skills and experience and - if my stats are to be believed - many,
> many
> > people appreciate it.
>
> Actually I've found your blog to be very good and useful. I feel that if
> you reigned in the arrogance a tad, you might get places faster.
>
> > I gain some sense of satisfaction from the fact that people (well, *some*
> > people at least) seem to appreciate my effort, but it certainly doesn't
> > "go
> > to my head".
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Post: delphi at delphi.org.nz
> > Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
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> > unsubscribe
> >
>
>
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>
>
>
> --
> Kyley Harris
> Harris Software
> +64-21-671-821
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
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-- 
Kyley Harris
Harris Software
+64-21-671-821
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