[DUG] Scripting languages

Tue May 30 14:50:16 NZST 2006

"It is also in Java .. "

I could smell Java on your breath!

On 30/05/06, Neven MacEwan <neven at mwk.co.nz> wrote:
>
> Richard
>
> I cant agree that any "language/environment promotes bad design"
> You may be suffering from technocratic snobbery :-)
>
> N
>
> Richard Vowles wrote:
> > That argument is fallacious, with enormous effort you can use almost any
> > language to design good software - it is simply a question of effort.
> > But when (a) the language/environment promotes bad design and (b) almost
> > all examples, and certainly all public examples that people learn from
> > are hideous beyond imagining then it is most definitely the fault of the
> > language.
> >
> > I know this is going to sound bad, I am guilty of it as well, but it
> > only strengthens my argument. 95% of Delphi apps out there are a mess
> > because that is what the language and framework and examples promoted.
> > It was the way it was done. PHP suffers the same way - mess = way it is
> > done and nothing out there promotes a better way. The fact that most
> > professional users of the product make great efforts to not use it in
> > the "out of the box" fashion is neither here nor there. Doing that
> > defeats much of the "benefits" of the language/environment. Why I like
> > ECO (and Bold before it) is because it brings the much needed structure
> > of good software design and yet retains the benefits of Delphi
> > development. Some people in the Delphi development community have done
> > this kind of thing already, and on the win32 platform - what percentage
> > I don't know, but simply spitting out your HTML via XSL-T IMHO is just a
> > plaster IMHO.
> >
> > Going back to Java - because I can, the current arguments in Java are
> > pretty much over the presentation layer mechanism, business logic, OO,
> > separation of concerns, security - all that stuff is generally done,
> > dusted and accepted - and it is done well and cleanly. From what I have
> > seen, PHP does not have that stuff sorted. PHP5 could be different, it
> > could be clean, but I don't know. But I doub't it.
> >
> > To carry on this discussion I would have to have a much greater
> > knowledge of PHP than I do, so perhaps it is all ignorance. But given
> > the PHP apps I have seen in the community (oscommerce, sugarcrm, various
> > others), PHP = struggle against the self inflicted chaos.
> > ---
> > Richard Vowles, Solutions Architect, Borland New Zealand
> > email: richard.vowles at borland.com
> > phone: +64-9-9184573
> > cell: +64-21-467747
> > other: MSN richard.vowles at borland.com, skype: rvowles
> > blog: http://www.usergroup.org.nz/blogs/selectBlog.html?id=39769
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: delphi-bounces at ns3.123.co.nz [mailto:delphi-bounces at ns3.123.co.nz]
> > On Behalf Of Dennis Chuah
> > Sent: Tuesday, 30 May 2006 12:59 p.m.
> > To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
> > Subject: Re: [DUG] Scripting languages
> >
> >
> > Just because software is poorly designed, doesn't mean to say the
> > language is crap.  I've seen plenty of poorly written Delphi code, parts
> > of the VCL included, and we all know Delphi is far from crap.
> > osCommerce IS the abomination, not PHP.
> >
> > Just like in ASP / JSP, embedding HTML is only an option.  You don't
> > have to use it.  Personally, I generate all my HTML through XSLT.  All
> > my code needs to do is create the right XML data structure and the
> > presentation is all in XSLT.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Neven MacEwan" <neven at mwk.co.nz>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 12:43 PM
> >
> >
> >> Yes it is off topic but you started it!
> >>
> >> PHP5's OO is a lot better and you could build a good framework in it
> >> (it is probably your framework which is good not the language)
> >>
> >> Some things in PHP5 are great Autoload for class refs etc, I'd not
> >> dismiss PHP.
> >>
> >> As you know its not the language which it at fault with HTML dev, its
> >> generally HTML itself but every time I see another golden bullet dev
> >> platform (Ruby on rails for example) I have a sly chuckle
> >>
> >> The best bit is that you can make PHP 5 look a lot like Delphi
> >>
> >> Neven
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Richard Vowles wrote:
> >>> Once I got to the retarded method they use for objects I just gave
> > up.
> >>> But this is off-topic.
> >>>
> >>> Ever tried to understand what is going on in oscommerce? PHP begs
> >>> spaghetti coding - and I can't stand that method of building web
> > pages.
> >>> I have my own framework I have worked on for years, it is
> >>> mega-productive, extremely clean and very extensible. It is also in
> > Java
> >>> which is both good and bad. My role in DevCo will require me to use
> > and
> >>> promote both technologies, but I'd like to be able to use it in .NET
> > as
> >>> well.
> >>>
> >>> Richard
> >>> ---
> >>> Richard Vowles, Solutions Architect, Borland New Zealand
> >>> email: richard.vowles at borland.com
> >>> phone: +64-9-9184573
> >>> cell: +64-21-467747
> >>> other: MSN richard.vowles at borland.com, skype: rvowles
> >>> blog: http://www.usergroup.org.nz/blogs/selectBlog.html?id=39769
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: delphi-bounces at ns3.123.co.nz
> > [mailto:delphi-bounces at ns3.123.co.nz]
> >>> On Behalf Of Alister Christie
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, 30 May 2006 11:54 a.m.
> >>> To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
> >>> Subject: Re: [DUG] Scripting languages
> >>>
> >>> Having done very little PHP I can't comment too much, however the bit
> > of
> >>> cut and paste I have done I found fairly easy to understand and
> > improve
> >>> upon.
> >>>
> >>> Do you consider it an abomination because of it's syntax (like say,
> > they
> >>> way VB is an abomination)?
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Delphi mailing list
> >>> Delphi at ns3.123.co.nz
> >>> http://ns3.123.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> Neven MacEwan (B.E. E&E)
> >> Ph. 09 620 1356 Mob. 027 4749 062
> >>
> >> New Address Details
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> >> Sandringham
> >> Auckland
> >>
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> >> Fx 620 1336
> >>
> >
> >
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>
> --
> Neven MacEwan (B.E. E&E)
> Ph. 09 620 1356 Mob. 027 4749 062
>
> New Address Details
> ===================
> MWK Computer Systems
> 1 Taumata Rd
> Sandringham
> Auckland
>
> Ph 620 1356
> Fx 620 1336
>
>
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