[DUG] Scripting languages

Tue May 30 13:51:06 NZST 2006

Richard

I cant agree that any "language/environment promotes bad design"
You may be suffering from technocratic snobbery :-)

N

Richard Vowles wrote:
> That argument is fallacious, with enormous effort you can use almost any
> language to design good software - it is simply a question of effort.
> But when (a) the language/environment promotes bad design and (b) almost
> all examples, and certainly all public examples that people learn from
> are hideous beyond imagining then it is most definitely the fault of the
> language.
> 
> I know this is going to sound bad, I am guilty of it as well, but it
> only strengthens my argument. 95% of Delphi apps out there are a mess
> because that is what the language and framework and examples promoted.
> It was the way it was done. PHP suffers the same way - mess = way it is
> done and nothing out there promotes a better way. The fact that most
> professional users of the product make great efforts to not use it in
> the "out of the box" fashion is neither here nor there. Doing that
> defeats much of the "benefits" of the language/environment. Why I like
> ECO (and Bold before it) is because it brings the much needed structure
> of good software design and yet retains the benefits of Delphi
> development. Some people in the Delphi development community have done
> this kind of thing already, and on the win32 platform - what percentage
> I don't know, but simply spitting out your HTML via XSL-T IMHO is just a
> plaster IMHO. 
> 
> Going back to Java - because I can, the current arguments in Java are
> pretty much over the presentation layer mechanism, business logic, OO,
> separation of concerns, security - all that stuff is generally done,
> dusted and accepted - and it is done well and cleanly. From what I have
> seen, PHP does not have that stuff sorted. PHP5 could be different, it
> could be clean, but I don't know. But I doub't it.
> 
> To carry on this discussion I would have to have a much greater
> knowledge of PHP than I do, so perhaps it is all ignorance. But given
> the PHP apps I have seen in the community (oscommerce, sugarcrm, various
> others), PHP = struggle against the self inflicted chaos.
> ---
> Richard Vowles, Solutions Architect, Borland New Zealand
> email: richard.vowles at borland.com
> phone: +64-9-9184573
> cell: +64-21-467747
> other: MSN richard.vowles at borland.com, skype: rvowles
> blog: http://www.usergroup.org.nz/blogs/selectBlog.html?id=39769
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: delphi-bounces at ns3.123.co.nz [mailto:delphi-bounces at ns3.123.co.nz]
> On Behalf Of Dennis Chuah
> Sent: Tuesday, 30 May 2006 12:59 p.m.
> To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
> Subject: Re: [DUG] Scripting languages
> 
> 
> Just because software is poorly designed, doesn't mean to say the
> language is crap.  I've seen plenty of poorly written Delphi code, parts
> of the VCL included, and we all know Delphi is far from crap.
> osCommerce IS the abomination, not PHP.
> 
> Just like in ASP / JSP, embedding HTML is only an option.  You don't
> have to use it.  Personally, I generate all my HTML through XSLT.  All
> my code needs to do is create the right XML data structure and the
> presentation is all in XSLT.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neven MacEwan" <neven at mwk.co.nz>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 12:43 PM
> 
> 
>> Yes it is off topic but you started it!
>>
>> PHP5's OO is a lot better and you could build a good framework in it
>> (it is probably your framework which is good not the language)
>>
>> Some things in PHP5 are great Autoload for class refs etc, I'd not
>> dismiss PHP.
>>
>> As you know its not the language which it at fault with HTML dev, its
>> generally HTML itself but every time I see another golden bullet dev
>> platform (Ruby on rails for example) I have a sly chuckle
>>
>> The best bit is that you can make PHP 5 look a lot like Delphi
>>
>> Neven
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard Vowles wrote:
>>> Once I got to the retarded method they use for objects I just gave
> up.
>>> But this is off-topic.
>>>
>>> Ever tried to understand what is going on in oscommerce? PHP begs
>>> spaghetti coding - and I can't stand that method of building web
> pages.
>>> I have my own framework I have worked on for years, it is
>>> mega-productive, extremely clean and very extensible. It is also in
> Java
>>> which is both good and bad. My role in DevCo will require me to use
> and
>>> promote both technologies, but I'd like to be able to use it in .NET
> as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> Richard
>>> ---
>>> Richard Vowles, Solutions Architect, Borland New Zealand
>>> email: richard.vowles at borland.com
>>> phone: +64-9-9184573
>>> cell: +64-21-467747
>>> other: MSN richard.vowles at borland.com, skype: rvowles
>>> blog: http://www.usergroup.org.nz/blogs/selectBlog.html?id=39769
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: delphi-bounces at ns3.123.co.nz
> [mailto:delphi-bounces at ns3.123.co.nz]
>>> On Behalf Of Alister Christie
>>> Sent: Tuesday, 30 May 2006 11:54 a.m.
>>> To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
>>> Subject: Re: [DUG] Scripting languages
>>>
>>> Having done very little PHP I can't comment too much, however the bit
> of
>>> cut and paste I have done I found fairly easy to understand and
> improve
>>> upon.
>>>
>>> Do you consider it an abomination because of it's syntax (like say,
> they
>>> way VB is an abomination)?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Delphi mailing list
>>> Delphi at ns3.123.co.nz
>>> http://ns3.123.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
>>>
>>>
>> -- 
>> Neven MacEwan (B.E. E&E)
>> Ph. 09 620 1356 Mob. 027 4749 062
>>
>> New Address Details
>> ===================
>> MWK Computer Systems
>> 1 Taumata Rd
>> Sandringham
>> Auckland
>>
>> Ph 620 1356
>> Fx 620 1336
>>
> 
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-- 
Neven MacEwan (B.E. E&E)
Ph. 09 620 1356 Mob. 027 4749 062

New Address Details
===================
MWK Computer Systems
1 Taumata Rd
Sandringham
Auckland

Ph 620 1356
Fx 620 1336
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