<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>I think there's another few sides to this as well and it all depends on "your" definition of a good developer.</div><div><br></div><div>Having lead technical teams for a number of years, I know that you can have not only different skill levels, but different knowledge and specialised areas even within senior developers. In any team, developers have their own specialisations relating to the type of work that the company does. Work can often be given to them because they are the one member in the team who knows about this or that.</div><div><br></div><div> For example, I know very senior developers who have never created a component in their lives, or others who are well known and seen as some of the very best in the industry, but may never have done a complete application design. Others may never have created a DLL or linked to external hardware.</div><div><br></div><div>I do have a real problem with this "ask specific questions" way to determine if they are a good developer. I know of some who would ask university-type questions to explain some specific UML design without realising that other companies don't actually use UML's, or some others who are convinced you are not a good developer if you can't describe some OO phrase exactly by the book without realising that no-one actually speaks that language outside of university, despite the fact that they program that way by nature.</div><div><br></div><div>I do remember being once asked to explain the difference between some obscure technical terms to do with encapsulation (I had never heard a programmer utter those words since coming out of university), but was able to then totally stump the interviewer when I asked back if they could explain the difference between parent and owner.</div><div><br></div><div>A Senior Developer in any of the teams that I have lead or worked in could be more easily described by the amount of real world abilities to problem solving and delivery to the users expectations, and their interaction with the customer, yet a good programmer would be one that could program a specific given task - there is a difference.</div><div><br></div><div>As for getting a coy of some old code - yes, that might be good but I tend to know programmers who hoard their precious code chunk, taking it with them everywhere and can produce it immediately. On the other hand, I have an old SQL builder program that I add to over the years and use to learn new ways of doing things with and learn how to get under the hood of the database and data structures - but I'd hate for others to see that code as it's forever a work in progress and used solely to learn (although the application is still in use around the world).</div><div><br></div><div>Steve Peacocke<div>+64 220 612-611</div></div><div><br>On 3/07/2014, at 12:45 pm, Jolyon Smith <<a href="mailto:jsmith@deltics.co.nz">jsmith@deltics.co.nz</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">I'd say that if you already have sufficient doubt to trust them to honestly represent their own work then it doesn't really matter what the code looks like, whoever's code it may be. ;)</div><div class="gmail_extra">
<br> <br><div class="gmail_quote">On 3 July 2014 12:35, Jeremy North <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jeremy.north@gmail.com" target="_blank">jeremy.north@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Also how do you know they actually wrote it.</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Jolyon Smith <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jsmith@deltics.co.nz" target="_blank">jsmith@deltics.co.nz</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">One possible problem with asking to look at old code is that this would often break confidentiality requirements with a previous employer/client.<br>
<br>I also have to admit that when I read some (<b>SOME</b>!) of my old code it gives me the shivers. People can get better over time y'know. :)<br>
<br>I think perhaps a better approach might be to ask someone what they <b>think</b> of the code they wrote in the past.</div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On 3 July 2014 12:03, Leigh Wanstead <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:leigh.wanstead@gmail.com" target="_blank">leigh.wanstead@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">To know if he/she is a good developer is very easy. Just read the code he/she wrote in the past.</div><div>
<div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 3 July 2014 11:51, Jolyon Smith <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jsmith@deltics.co.nz" target="_blank">jsmith@deltics.co.nz</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">As you say John, the measure of "good" is a complex issue and may even vary from project to project according to the needs of those projects. Technical proficiency (in any specific area) , mentoring skills or knowledge (OO or again, in whatever area) can all be gained as and when needed but may or may not be relevant to a particular project.<br>
<br>Ultimately it comes down to a combination of knowledge and approach, and the "fit" in these areas that a developer has with the needs of any particular project.<br><br>In my experience, the best developers are the curious and caring ones. By which I don't mean the ones that people raise an eyebrow to/at and who get all teary eyed at a soppy movie, but who - when faced with a problem or a challenge - seek first to fully understand it before rolling up their sleeves and cutting code. And when they do produce code, they care about the clarity and structure of it. "Working code" isn't good enough for such people, it must also have some aesthetic other quality.<div>
<br></div><div>i.m.e more often than not, ugly code turns eventually out to be wrong code. I know when I'm on the right track to a solution because it not only works, but it makes a sort of obvious sense and has a certain elegance that cannot be simply designed in.<br>
<br><div><br></div><div>But, as I say, it's a highly complex area and I don't think there is a simple check list of qualities that categorically identify a "good developer".<br></div><div><br>Which is perhaps why it is also difficult to determine the value of one, resulting in the tendency to place value on more easily measured qualities, such as scarcity, experience (as measured in years), etc etc<br>
<br></div></div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 3 July 2014 11:20, John Bird <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:johnkbird@paradise.net.nz" target="_blank">johnkbird@paradise.net.nz</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000">
<div>OK that begs a further discussion!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>What in your eyes makes a developer “good” as opposed to thinking they are
good – specific qualities please of what the good qualities are. I am
wondering if there are many opinions of what a “good” programmer is which might
explain why some think they are good whilst others think they are not.
What are the more objective measures?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I have worked on numerous projects the last few years and seen a lot of
different talents. Some that stick out in my experience are:</div>
<div> </div>
<ul>
<li>Technical proficiency – ie knowing already what is likely to be the best
technology to use to tackle a new problem
</li><li>OO depth. Is it innate or learned? How is it best
learned?
</li><li>Ability to mentor and guide others through existing code</li></ul>
<div>Curious to hear specifics from you as you have the reputation of a Delphi
authority!</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="jeremy.north@gmail.com" href="mailto:jeremy.north@gmail.com" target="_blank">Jeremy North</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 3, 2014 10:23 AM</div><div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="delphi@listserver.123.net.nz" href="mailto:delphi@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi
List</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington</div></div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div dir="ltr">I know here (Australia) we would happily pay decent salaries if we
found Delphi developers that were actually good and didn't just *think* they
were good.</div><div><div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Stefan Mueller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:muellers@orcl-toolbox.com" target="_blank">muellers@orcl-toolbox.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid">
<div lang="EN-US" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">As
a Swiss Delphi Developer living in New Zealand I find that interesting.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Switzerland
isn’t exactly at the top of my mind when I think about the “value for bucks”
for outsourcing work to – not because you don’t get the quality, but because
salaries there are almost twice what you would have to pay
here.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial","sans-serif";COLOR:black"><br><br></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial","sans-serif";COLOR:black">Kind
regards,<br><br></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial","sans-serif";COLOR:black">Stefan
Müller</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial","sans-serif";COLOR:black">,<br>R&D
Manager</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><br><br></span><b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial","sans-serif";BACKGROUND:red;COLOR:white">ORCL</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">
</span><b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial","sans-serif";COLOR:black">Toolbox
Ltd.</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">
<br></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial","sans-serif";COLOR:black">Auckland,
New Zealand</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt;FONT-FAMILY:webdings;COLOR:#777777"><br>P</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Arial","sans-serif";COLOR:#777777">
Please consider the environment before printing this email<br><br>This message
is intended for the adresse named above and may contain privileged or
confidential information.<br>If you are not the intended recipient of this
message you must not use, copy, distribute or disclose it to
anyone.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0cm;PADDING-TOP:3pt;PADDING-LEFT:0cm;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-RIGHT:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Tony Blomfield<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 3 July 2014 9:29
a.m.<br><b>To:</b> 'NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi
List'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Work Wanted in
Wellington<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Gary.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">If
you would like to send the details to me I will have a chat with
them.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Unfortunately
we have had such a bad run with Kiwi Developers we moved our R&D over to
Switzerland last year where we get much more cost effective
results.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Anyway,
I’d like to assess the person myself to see if they are
suitable.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Kind
regards.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d">Tony
Blomfield<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif";COLOR:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-TOP:#e1e1e1 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0cm;PADDING-TOP:3pt;PADDING-LEFT:0cm;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-RIGHT:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a> [<a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Gary T. Benner<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 2 July 2014 2:32
p.m.<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:delphi@delphi.org.nz" target="_blank">delphi@delphi.org.nz</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [DUG] Work Wanted in
Wellington<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-FAMILY:"MS Sans Serif"">HI
All,</span><span lang="EN-NZ"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-FAMILY:"MS Sans Serif"">This just passed in
if anyone can help:</span><span lang="EN-NZ"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><b><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-FAMILY:"MS Sans Serif"">Permanent
Developer available in Wellington.</span></b><span lang="EN-NZ">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><b><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-FAMILY:"MS Sans Serif"">Experienced Senior
Delphi Developer looking for a permanent role in or around Wellington.
</span></b><span lang="EN-NZ"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><b><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-FAMILY:"MS Sans Serif"">Open to remote
work. Also open to learning a new language if needed. Experienced in picking
up code from others and looking after legacy systems as well as new
development.</span></b><span lang="EN-NZ"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><b><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-FAMILY:"MS Sans Serif"">Also experienced
as a Development Manager and Product Management.</span></b><span lang="EN-NZ">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-FAMILY:"MS Sans Serif"">Anyone with an
opportunity can email me at <a href="mailto:gary@benner.co.nz" target="_blank">gary@benner.co.nz</a> and I'll pass it on.</span><span lang="EN-NZ"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-FAMILY:"MS Sans Serif"">cheers</span><span lang="EN-NZ"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-FAMILY:"MS Sans Serif"">Gary</span><span lang="EN-NZ"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-FAMILY:"MS Sans Serif"">List
Admin</span><span lang="EN-NZ"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-SIZE:7.5pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica","sans-serif";COLOR:gray"><br></span><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica","sans-serif";COLOR:black">Gary
Benner </span><span lang="EN-NZ" style="FONT-SIZE:7.5pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Helvetica","sans-serif";COLOR:gray">MNZCS
ITCP<br>Information Technology Certified Professional <br><a href="http://www.onlearn.co.nz" target="_blank"><span style="TEXT-DECORATION:none">Onlearn Limited</span></a> - Online Learning
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