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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">HI Leigh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Could you share the website address with us. I think if we could see the address and put your problem into context we would be able to offer solutions that
better fit your requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#122029">Cameron Hart
</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#92C75F">Flow Software Limited
</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img width="1" height="55" id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CF9779.35660870"></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img width="158" height="38" id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image002.jpg@01CF9779.35660870" alt="Flow"></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#122029">PO Box 302 768, North Harbour
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#92C75F">P
</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#122029">+64 9 476 3569</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#122029">Auckland 0751, New Zealand
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#122029">+64 21 222 3569
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.flowsoftware.co.nz"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#122029">www.flowsoftware.co.nz
</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#92C75F">E
</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:cameron.hart@flowsoftware.co.nz"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#122029">cameron.hart@flowsoftware.co.nz
</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#122029">This message is intended for the addressee named above. It may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of
this message you must not use, copy, distribute or disclose it to anyone. </span>
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#92C75F"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:#92C75F">P</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#122029">Please consider the environment before printing this email</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz [mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Leigh Wanstead<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, 4 July 2014 10:57 a.m.<br>
<b>To:</b> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi John,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for the suggestion.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">But if I offer authenticate after 100-200 records, the hacker just give up that cookie, ip and get a new ip to bypass the restriction.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Leigh<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 4 July 2014 10:51, John Bird <<a href="mailto:johnkbird@paradise.net.nz" target="_blank">johnkbird@paradise.net.nz</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Sounds to me like the data needs to be hidden from the web site in a database with authentication to view records. You could easily allow users to see say some eg 100-200 records
even if not authenticated but not more.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">There is a similar restriction in data for instance with electoral roles – you can look up names but not scrape data – there the reasons are for privacy as well as to protect
their income as they sell data to certain users only.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:leigh.wanstead@gmail.com" target="_blank" title="leigh.wanstead@gmail.com">
Leigh Wanstead</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> Friday, July 4, 2014 10:39 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:delphi@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank" title="delphi@listserver.123.net.nz">
NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> Re: [DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Hi David,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">It is like amazon. Amazon does not require user name/password just browsing the data.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Leigh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">On 4 July 2014 10:29, David Brennan <<a href="mailto:dugdavid@dbsolutions.co.nz" target="_blank">dugdavid@dbsolutions.co.nz</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Sounds unusual. So the company sells the data but doesn’t have a login system to control who consumes
the data?</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">David.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Leigh Wanstead<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, 4 July 2014 10:16 a.m.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
<b>To:</b> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Hi Jolyon,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">The company I work for is selling data. The data is the income of the company.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Leigh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">On 4 July 2014 09:23, Jolyon Smith <<a href="mailto:jsmith@deltics.co.nz" target="_blank">jsmith@deltics.co.nz</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">I don't understand this determination to make the hacker's life difficult. Surely the objective is to address the impact on the site for legitimate users
?<br>
<br>
Contriving schemes to make the hacker's life difficult is simply extending the problem domain into an irrelevant area and increasing the complexity by orders of magnitude in order to protect information that is public already - there is no mention of any attempt
to thwart site security, only scraping of publicly accessible URL's..<br>
<br>
If the intent is to disincentivise the hacker, simply denying them the ability to scrape the site by detecting and blocking them will cause them inconvenience enough. Even if it doesn't, as long as their activity is not impacting on the legitimate operation
of the site then the key objective is met - that of maintaining site response for legit users.<br>
<br>
Almost all of these schemes to make the scrapers life miserable do also impact on the legitimate user experience, loading up the server and the client browser processing with overhead targeted at the scraper but imposed on ALL clients.<br>
<br>
<br>
I can see that the technical challenge of "beating" the hacker could be attractive, but it seems to me to be an ultimately pointless and resource sapping "Arms Race" that cannot ever really be won... even if you eventually drive the scraper to give up entirely,
burdensome counter-measures will themselves have impacted on your site, defeating if not the whole object then certainly a significant part of it, of getting rid of the scraper activity in the first place.<br>
<br>
Of course, if you can find counter-measures which do not impose any such burden on legit users then you have the best of both worlds, but the key need to be met is addressing the scraper by removing the impact on legit users, not adding to it.<br>
<br>
<br>
So, bringing it back to the original topic - What makes a good developer ?<br>
<br>
Another characteristic would be the ability to remain focused on the key objective/user need, rather than being drawn into a bottomless honey pot of technical challenge of limited/no direct relevance to the problem at hand.<br>
<br>
:)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">On 4 July 2014 09:05, Phil Scadden <<a href="mailto:p.scadden@gns.cri.nz" target="_blank">p.scadden@gns.cri.nz</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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> Regarding to render the website in Javascript, how are you going to<br>
> stop the browser driven by script? The hacker does not need to<br>
> understand the javascript. All he need is just grab dom element.<br>
That would be true but very unlikely that hacker is using browser. Too<br>
slow. If you load the html with junk data and modify it with js, it may<br>
take the hacker a long time to notice they are using crap. But I would<br>
looking at detecting the hacker without a tip off in first place and<br>
then figure out ways to make life difficult.<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Phil Scadden, Senior Scientist GNS Science Ltd 764 Cumberland St,<br>
Private Bag 1930, Dunedin, New Zealand Ph <a href="tel:%2B64%203%204799663" target="_blank">
+64 3 4799663</a>, fax <a href="tel:%2B64%203%20477%205232" target="_blank">+64 3 477 5232</a><br>
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