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Hi David, Jolyon, Leigh and other contributors<br>
<br>
I was at the event on Friday, having been at all the releases
recently. The intention of this release was, something for everyone
.. sort of a bit of a lolly scramble really. I've just upgraded to
XE5 and want to get to grips with it before anything else.<br>
<br>
What I'd really like to add is how valuable I'm finding the
'debate', 'information sharing you guys are so generously posting
here. Its helping me to position my next steps..<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
Ian Drower<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/05/2014 5:18 p.m., David Brennan
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hi
Jolyon,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">What
I said was: “Any solution needs to provide either a near
perfect one way migration path <b>or</b> long-term single
sourcing between VCL apps and the new platforms.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Embarcadero’s
current approach is the latter route. I can use exactly the
same source code between VCL and Firemonkey apps. The GUI
layer certainly needs to be different but I regard this as
an unfortunate inevitability whichever route Embarcadero
went (as I said in my original reply, the only alternative
would be to update VCL to seamlessly cross compile onto
other platforms which everyone seems to have agreed was just
too hard).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
are correct that I haven’t tried to migrate any of our
current applications to Firemonkey and I have spent a
relatively small amount of time developing test apps in it.
However large parts of our code, including the most
important and complex parts, can be compiled without VCL
forms and are used without the GUI in several different DLL
styles (eg ISAPI, COM DLLs, etc). There would of course
still be plenty of work to be done in incorporating this
code into a Firemonkey app (new GUI, GUI links to our
business objects, mobile compatible data layer) but our core
logic should in theory be fine. The only hiccup I can see is
the new object reference counting used on the mobile
platforms which may require some tweaking of how we handle
lifetimes of some objects to make sure they get freed
properly when desired. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Even
if some effort is required the key point is that after we
have performed this effort our core logic can be compiled to
all platforms (including Windows). That is my main goal out
of any cross platform solution and anything which does not
deliver this automatically fails.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
do agree that lack of support for Windows Apps may become a
concern. Last I heard Microsoft were deliberately locking
out native solutions which don’t use their exception
handler. However this is only a real problem for us if
Windows RT takes off and currently it seems to be doing the
opposite. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">David.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz">mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a>] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Jolyon Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 5 May 2014 4:27 p.m.<br>
<b>To:</b> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Auckland Event Details<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">@David: What you say they shouldn't do
(treat Delphi+VCL as legacy) is exactly what they <b>are</b>
doing, they just haven't come out and said as much.<br>
<br>
Consider that their Windows 8 support consists of little
more than GUI styling. FireMonkey does not work very well
(in terms of making sense) in this space and you might argue
that this is OK because Windows won't be as relevant in the
<b>mobile</b> space (many would disagree) where FireMonkey
is more firmly planted. But for the VCL to be struggling to
remain current on the desktop, should be a source of
concern.<br>
<br>
The best you can do with either approach is create something
that looks the part but which doesn't stack up once you peel
back the GUI paint job.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So, that being the case, if FireMonkey
is the "future"of Delphi on future relevant platforms,
where does that leave the VCL and longer term support for
the Windows desktop ? Which, growth of other platforms
notwithstanding, will remain very relevant for a long time
to come.<br>
<br>
<br>
From what you say I get the impression that you haven't
yet actually tried to migrate any code to the FireMonkey
world.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Unless your legacy code was implemented in a fortuitously
forward-thinking manner, I suspect that a great deal of
what you think might/should be portable in your VCL code
in particular may well turn out to depend on things that
aren't available to you in FireMonkey, or certainly not in
a way that you will be able to seamlessly and effortlessly
migrate to.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
@Xander:<br>
<br>
Cost is one reason to discount Xamarin. Elements cost me
US$699 - that's both Oxygene (ObjectPascal) and Hydrogene
(C#) for .NET, Java and Cocoa.<br>
<br>
Why would I need both languages ?<br>
<br>
Well, I intend to learn C#, but I have shorter term
project goals where being able to leverage my productivity
in ObjectPascal will be useful. With Elements I can mix
and match as I develop my C# skills. Because there are no
framework/runtime "walled gardens" in the way, work done
in one is directly usable in/with the other and - indeed -
in the platform native development environments to boot.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">i.e. if it is easier to create a "Cocoa
encapsulation"of some C API using C# than to do so in
ObjectPascal, then I can do so, but then I can use the
classes thus created directly on the ObjectPascal side, if
I prefer to use that for (e.g.) some GUI app that consumes
that API.<br>
<br>
And I can publish my encapsulation and Objective-C
developers can use it in their Xcode solutions.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The same applies in the Java space.
Also, in that case, I prefer Visual Studio to Eclipse or
any of the other Java development environments (plus Java
is even worse than C# as a squirrely brackets language).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Which is another point worth
mentioning.... RemObjects implementation of ObjectPascal
and - to a lesser extent - C# improve significantly on
Java, C# and Objective-C in key areas, without losing
compatibility at the code-gen level.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
@Leigh - why not use Java ?<br>
<br>
I think my answers above should explain why I prefer not
to use Java. :)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
For context:<br>
<br>
I currently do most iOS / OS X development in Xcode and
Objective-C.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
I use Oxygene for Java (Android) being careful where
possible to create relevant code in my Android projects
in a portable, platform independent form with a view to
re-using it in future Xcode/Oxygene/Hydrogene projects.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I
anticipate using Hydrogene and/or Oxygene for .NET<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 5 May 2014 15:50, David Brennan <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dugdavid@dbsolutions.co.nz" target="_blank">dugdavid@dbsolutions.co.nz</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks
for the reply. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
single source requirement was based on my own
requirements but I strongly suspect I’m not alone in
this. We have a million odd lines of code and having
to maintain two versions of that code to support
iOS/Android would automatically rule any solution
out for us. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Maintaining
two versions of the GUI is also annoying but
marginally more palatable because a decent case can
be made that the GUI requirements between the
different formats are sufficiently different to
mandate making new form designs anyway. Even so, I
would still strongly prefer that being my choice
rather than foisted on me, and I would also prefer
to be able to use our current components on the new
GUI (in our case primarily DevExpress VCL). However
I accept that it was close to impossible to port VCL
to the mobile platforms so a new GUI layer was
inevitable.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Looking
at overall approaches (and ignoring you specific
recommendation with Prism) I believe there are two
aspects to what you are saying Embarcadero should
have done:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">1.</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Their
GUI layer should be platform specific. Thus one
would need to develop a new version of a form for
each target platform. I can see the arguments both
ways on this and suspect it comes down to how much
effort a developer wants to spend on each platform.
For the foreseeable future any iOS/Android apps we
release are unlikely to be our core business so from
my point of view I prefer being able to develop a
single tablet size version of each form, add a few
platform specific runtime customisations to the
layout and release to all platforms. But I recognise
others may prefer the other route. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">2.</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Their
language should cross compile into the most common
environment of each platform. That means Java for
Android, Cocoa for OSX/iOS, .NET/Win32/Win64 for
Windows. That is a pretty impressive trick and I am
indeed impressed that RemObjects have managed to
pull it off. The question is whether Embarcadero
could have achieved something similar while
maintaining single source backward compatibility for
their existing customer base. We would still need to
be able to compile our current applications for
Windows with minimal changes. This means VCL still
needs to compile too, as do applications which
directly access Windows APIs etc (although obviously
it would be acceptable to need to replace both VCL
and Windows API calls before single sourcing to
another platform). I think it might have been
possible but Embarcadero decided to go the native
instructions way instead.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Back
to your specific suggestion, you say that
Embarcadero should have made Delphi + VCL a legacy
solution and made Prism the new solution. In order
for this to work IMO either Embarcadero would need
to provide a robust tool to convert VCL projects to
Prism projects OR you would need to be able to
single source code between Delphi and Prism.
Otherwise the migration hurdle is just too large – a
development house would need to move ALL their code
and rebuild ALL their GUI in Prism at once to make
the switch, small steps over time would be
impossible. Embarcadero would also have come under a
lot of pressure to enhance Prism so you could
compile directly to Win32/Win64, otherwise a portion
of their customer base who demand to the metal code
in Windows would not make the switch.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This
is all in my opinion, but it is in my opinion as the
owner of a Delphi software development house. Hence
I think my situation is relevant. You blithely say
‘simple’ leave Delphi + VCL as their Win32 solution
with Prism/Elements as the new platform. But I don’t
think it is ‘simple’, as I explained in the previous
paragraph. Any solution needs to provide either a
near perfect one way migration path or long-term
single sourcing between VCL apps and the new the
platforms. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In
that context I can see why Embarcadero have gone the
way they have and it seems reasonable to me. My only
beef with it is whether the implementation they
chose (Firemonkey) was the right one – I think they
needed to be much more ambitious with their initial
design of Firemonkey, do everything properly to make
it a really top class component suite, and then
spend three years carefully developing it before
releasing it. Instead they purchased it then rushed
it out the door, and have been spending a lot of
time since then trying to fix design flaws,
something which is much harder to do once it is
already in use and backward compatibility is an
issue.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">David.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz"
target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz"
target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jolyon Smith</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 5 May 2014 2:41 p.m.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:russell@belding.co.nz" target="_blank">russell@belding.co.nz</a>;
NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Auckland Event Details<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">@David:<br>
<br>
Your prescription that the approach must support
single source is arbitrary. Heck, not even
Embarcadero achieved this goal completely
satisfactorily, so by that criteria FireMonkey
itself is a failure.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">RemObjects
approach is the more robust one.<br>
<br>
Rather than trying to pretend that platform
differences can be abstracted away or
reduced to lowest common denominator (as if
the various user communities of the various
platforms were not themselves making their
choices precisely because of those
differences, in many cases), those
differences should be embraced and the
developers empowered to take full advantage
of them in order to provide the best
solutions possible for <b>each</b>
platform, not limited to providing a
solution that can be deployed on <b>all</b>
platforms.<br>
<br>
What should Embarcadero have done ?<br>
<br>
Simple. Instead of tossing Prism into the
long grass, they should have brought
Elements into the fold. Kept Delphi + VCL
as their Win32 solution with Elements as
their .NET and mobile platforms offering.<br>
<br>
But, frankly, as an Elements user who has
previously experienced
Borland/Inprise/Codegear/Embarcadero's
product management, development, marketing
and pricing at first hand, I am actually <b>very</b>
relieved that they didn't (and suspect that
RemObjects themselves might have resisted
any attempt to do so). ;)<br>
<br>
The very fact that an outfit such as
RemObjects have both the technical nouse and
capacity to deliver something like Elements
whilst Embarcadero, with far more resources
at their disposal, are left buying up other
people's technologies and trying to create a
marketing message around them whilst rushing
out poor quality releases (XE6 Hotfix 1 was
out before the ink had dried on the XE6
release EULA!) to keep the money mill
churning, should tell you everything you
need to know about Delphi's future.<br>
<br>
If RemObjects can do it, and if Embarcadero
are everything that their supporters crack
them up to be, then Embarcadero should have
been able to deliver their own "Elements",
especially given that they would have been
able to focus exclusively on a Pascal
solution, if they so chose, without the
added distraction of a C# front end.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">@Leigh....<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Yes,
Oxygene/Hydrogene (hereafter: Elements) when
targetting Java, produces Java byte code.
Just like the vast majority of Android code
out there (with the exception of games - the
one type of app that the NativeActivity
support in Android was only ever intended
for). Oh, and the FireMonkey apps.<br>
<br>
One thing this means is that unlike
FireMonkey, your target platform is not
confined only to Android and the Java
environment provided there. For example, if
you really wanted to, you could use Elements
to create an Eclipse plug-in.<br>
<br>
Elements can produce Java code, hence
Elements supports all Java based platforms
using all of the capabilities that those
Java platforms supports because - to all
intents and purposes - when compiling for
Java, Elements <b>is</b> Java. Just with a
different language front-end.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">As
such, yes, it runs at Java speed, just
like all the other Java code on those Java
based devices, Android or otherwise. But
it does so without having to drag in a
bloated runtime and a custom UI rendering
engine (and that's incorporated into EVERY
FireMonkey app, btw). Your apps take full
advantage of the device capabilities.<br>
<br>
That includes, for example, ART, which is
the Android technology that allows Java
based Android apps to be installed as
pre-compiled, native code binaries. Just
like FireMonkey apps, but without the
embedded bloatware, and with the ability
to run on any Android device (that support
ART, or indeed of course all the ones that
don''t).<br>
<br>
<br>
But equally, when compiling for Cocoa,
Elements is an LLVM compiler. All of the
same advantages apply - you have complete,
platform native access to the platform
with all of the benefits that accrue.
Whether that is Cocoa (OS X) or
CocoaTouch (iOS).<br>
<br>
Similarly, Elements for .NET... any .NET
based platform is available to you, be
that Windows.NET, Windows RT or Windows
Phone.<br>
<br>
<br>
How is the .NET support in FireMonkey
these days, by the way ? ;)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
5 May 2014 12:59, russell <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:russell@belding.co.nz"
target="_blank">russell@belding.co.nz</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Always
interesting to read strong opinions …
even when presented as facts and
focusing on a few topics.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
analysis looks plausible. I cannot
assess it well as I write for a niche
community and RAD Studio serves me
fairly well.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Russell</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz"
target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jolyon Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 5 May 2014 11:13
a.m.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
<b>To:</b> NZ Borland Developers Group
- Delphi List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Auckland
Event Details<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">What
makes less sense is the way that
they added support for those
platforms. You are right to
highlight the manner in which they
have managed to tick boxes.
Unfortunately it is <b>purely</b>
an exercise in ticking boxes. Far
less useful as a solid basis for
continuing to be able to <b>keep</b>
those boxes ticked.<br>
<br>
Delphi was always a niche product.
Despite the marketing, their
cross-platform solution is <b>not</b>
Delphi for "iOS/OS X/Android" (and
it painfully clearly is not Delphi
for .NET, let alone WinRT or
WinPhone). It is "Delphi for
FireMonkey", with the ability to
deploy to any platform that
FireMonkey manages to cajole a
semblance of support for within the
constraints of what the approach
allows.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">i.e.
you cannot build true Android
solutions using FireMonkey because
the way that FireMonkey works
rules out certain capabilities of
that platform. Similarly your
FireMonkey Android apps will not
benefit from ART. Sure, your
FireMonkey app is "native code",
but is also bogged down by the
non-platform native frameworks
required to make even "Hello
World"possible, so whilst true
platform native apps gain all the
benefits that that platform
delivers, FireMonkey remains stuck
in it's own world.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">i.e.
FireMonkey created a niche
within a niche.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Having
attracted the interest of Delphi
developers to the platforms that
FireMonkey ticks the boxes for,
many of those developers will
quickly realise the limits and
look instead at the
alternatives, at which point
they realise just how far behind
Delphi has fallen over the years
while Embarcadero wasted their
time on the Smoking Chimp.<br>
<br>
As for the renewed interest in
developing the VCL, this can be
seen as a return to core value,
or it could be seen as a belated
recognition that FireMonkey is
not in fact the secure future
for Delphi/Embarcadero that it
was supposed to be, and worst of
all, without any viable strategy
for supporting the platform on
which that core value rests -
i.e. the latest and future
versions of Windows - even that
core value is now at risk.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
For myself, I now use a
combination of RemObjects
Elements and Xcode for most of
my work. Delphi is now very
much a legacy platform.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
5 May 2014 10:46, David Brennan
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dugdavid@dbsolutions.co.nz"
target="_blank">dugdavid@dbsolutions.co.nz</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It
was a good seminar IMO. I
understand why Embarcadero
have decided to spend so
much time adding support for
OS-X, iOS and Android, at
some point we may even take
advantage of it. More
importantly though I’m glad
they seem to have realised
that now they have ticked
those boxes they need to
return to address quality
across the product. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
just hope that XE7 will
continue that trend so that
the Delphi IDE and
executables continue to
improve in speed and
robustness. I’m also hoping
that XE7 will see a big push
to make Code Insight
bulletproof (or as bullet
proof as such a thing can
be, given that if you screw
your syntax up completely
midway through a big change
it is always going to
struggle, but it would be
nice if it returned to fully
operational once you tidy
things up a bit!).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">David.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz"
target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz"
target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy
Coulter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 5 May
2014 10:10 a.m.<br>
<b>To:</b> NZ Borland
Developers Group - Delphi
List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG]
Auckland Event Details</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Yeah
let us know hen its done. We
didnt attend the
presentation for various
reasons, although it would
have be good, so am looking
forward to hearing what
Marco had to say.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Jeremy<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
Mon, May 5, 2014 at 9:51
AM, Alister Christie <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:alister@salespartner.co.nz"
target="_blank">alister@salespartner.co.nz</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I
managed to spend a
number of hours with
Marco after the
presentation, and have
about an hour and a
quarter recorded, which
I will make available
after Marco has reviewed
it. It was great
talking with him, it
seems that Embarcadero
made a good choice
appointing him Product
Manager for Rad Studio.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Alister <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#888888"><br
clear="all">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<pre><span style="color:#888888">Alister Christie</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="color:#888888">Computers for People</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="color:#888888">Ph: 04 471 1849 Fax: 04 471 1266</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="color:#888888"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.salespartner.co.nz" target="_blank">http://www.salespartner.co.nz</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="color:#888888">Follow us on Twitter <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://twitter.com/salespartner" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/salespartner</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="color:#888888">PO Box 13085</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="color:#888888">Johnsonville</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="color:#888888">Wellington</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Wed, Apr
30, 2014 at 8:43
AM, Gary Benner
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gary@benner.co.nz" target="_blank">gary@benner.co.nz</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm
0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">HI All,<br>
<br>
Sorry this is
a little late
but just got
back from a
trip overseas.
<br>
<br>
To endorse
Alister's
comment, great
opportunity to
meet Marco.<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
<br>
Gary<br>
<span
lang="EN-US"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please see
below details
for the RAD
XE6 Launch.
Please will
you forward
this email
invitation to
members of the
NZDUD to
register/attend
the event. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
lang="EN-US">Date
and Venue:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
lang="EN-US">Friday,
02 May:
Auckland</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
lang="EN-US">Venue:
Rydges
Auckland - 59
Federal Street
Cnr Kingston
Street,
Auckland 1010,
New Zealand</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
lang="EN-US">Time:
8.30am
Registrations,
9:00am –
12:00pm </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://forms.embarcadero.com/AP14Q2NZDeveloperDirectLIVE"
target="_blank">http://forms.embarcadero.com/AP14Q2NZDeveloperDirectLIVE</a>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p
style="line-height:13.5pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">The
event will be
hosted by
Damien Bootsma
with special
guest-speaker,
Marco Cantu,
RAD Studio
Product
Manager,
global
luminary &
author of over
a dozen books
on Delphi.
This event is
not to be
missed, so
register NOW,
as spaces are
limited! </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
style="line-height:13.5pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Be
amongst the
first to see
live previews
of RAD Studio
XE6 and all of
the great new
technology,
with the
latest
enhancements
to the VCL and
more. <br>
Here's a
glimpse of
what is in
store:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<table
class="MsoNormalTable"
style="width:345.0pt" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="3" border="0"
width="460">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
colspan="2"
style="padding:.75pt
.75pt .75pt
.75pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Empowering
your VCL
codebase and
developer
productivity<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
style="width:15.0pt;padding:.75pt
.75pt .75pt
.75pt"
width="20">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:330.0pt;padding:.75pt
.75pt .75pt
.75pt"
width="440">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">• Give Your
VCL apps a new
look-and-feel
with improved
VCL Styling <br>
• Introducing
Win 7/8
taskbar
buttons<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
colspan="2"
style="padding:.75pt
.75pt .75pt
.75pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Database,
integration
and scalable
services with
RAD Studio XE6<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
style="width:15.0pt;padding:.75pt
.75pt .75pt
.75pt"
width="20">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:330.0pt;padding:.75pt
.75pt .75pt
.75pt"
width="440">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">• Core
Database
Features
Improvements<br>
• New FireDAC
Database
Explorer and
more<br>
• Working with
JSON and XML<br>
• Building
scalable and
secure
DataSnap
services<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
colspan="2"
style="padding:.75pt
.75pt .75pt
.75pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Embrace and
Extend Your
Mobile and VCL
applications<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
style="width:15.0pt;padding:.75pt
.75pt .75pt
.75pt"
width="20">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:330.0pt;padding:.75pt
.75pt .75pt
.75pt"
width="440">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">• App
Tethering<br>
• Not
reinventing
the wheel with
new BAAS
Client
components<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
colspan="2"
style="padding:.75pt
.75pt .75pt
.75pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">"Turning on"
to mobile and
The FM
Application
Platform<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
style="width:15.0pt;padding:.75pt
.75pt .75pt
.75pt"
width="20">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:330.0pt;padding:.75pt
.75pt .75pt
.75pt"
width="440">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">• Introducing
Android
support in
C++Builder XE6<br>
• App
Monetization
with
Advertising
and In-App
Purchases<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
colspan="2"
style="padding:.75pt
.75pt .75pt
.75pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Evolution
within a
revolution:
Summary and
Q&A<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black">If
you are an
application
developer,
technologist
or development
team leader
and interested
in modernising
your VCL apps
&
extending your
applications
to mobile
devices for
your
customers,
then this
event is for
you!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black">Kind
regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black">Mike</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</blockquote>
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