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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-NZ link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Yep. My reply was meant to be to David O’Brien’s question but it appears I inadvertently clicked reply on your email. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Multiple tests certainly helps, we’ve got to the point where we give candidates the first test within a couple of minutes of them walking in the door. If they fail that then we don’t do the rest of the interview. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Seems pretty brutal but we’ve concluded we are wasting the candidate’s time as well as ours if we spend 30+ minutes discussing life, the universe and programming with a candidate when it later turns out we don’t have any interest in employing them. Our second test comes after the verbal interview, possibly on a second visit if they can’t stay long enough on the first.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>David.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz [mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy North<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 31 July 2013 1:21 p.m.<br><b>To:</b> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Average Salary<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>We use multiple tests.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:49 AM, David Brennan <<a href="mailto:dugdavid@dbsolutions.co.nz" target="_blank">dugdavid@dbsolutions.co.nz</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We interview more new graduates than experienced developers (just seems to suit us to hire top graduates and ‘mould’ them to our way of developing) so our tests are purely pseudocode and don’t require any Delphi knowledge. We are quite happy to teach Delphi and in any case we believe that learning our flavour of Delphi (ie all our library functions, form hierarchy, data models, industry jargon, etc) is a rather larger job than learning the standard VCL/RTL anyway so it isn’t a big deal if people don’t know it.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We’re fairly careful about not posting our tests anywhere because we don’t want them to somehow end up known by candidates (unlikely admittedly, more the sort of problem Google has!). They are based loosely in our field of expertise (ie calculating sizes and cutouts for glass structures) so for example the first test is to position a handle on a door given a few simple classes (eg THandle, TDoor, etc) and a short list of 3 or 4 rules which say how the handle must be positioned. Half the people who fail this appear to have just not read the whole question properly (despite bold warnings to read everything carefully), the other half can’t get their logic or arithmetic right.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The second test is broader, it has a simple trig question, a ‘write a customer support email’ question (even our developers need to be able to communicate reasonably in English) and a couple of trickier pseudo-code coding problems.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>David.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy North<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 31 July 2013 12:27 p.m.</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><b>To:</b> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Average Salary<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I do a verbal (during the interview) and written test. The verbal are things like explain the differences between the visibility specifiers, what is notification used for, where is it implemented (what type). If they get the notification stuff (there are some other questions about it) I ask if they know what design pattern is used for the implementation of the notification system. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The written test has some short answer questions basically prodding the knowledge of the RTL and VCL/FireMonkey (we are using FireMonkey on a project atm). Then we have a larger design question where we give a specification and ask them to detail classes to be written to implement the spec. It gives us a big idea of their OO and design skills. We also ask thread specific questions.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The written test is about an hour. (we leave for 10 mins reading and pop back for any questions). Test is written, no PC (although next time we might supply a PC).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The verbal I have about 10 questions, depending on how they answer this can be cut down or added to. If they can't explain the difference in visibility, the verbal question time is very short <g>. They are short answer usually (depending on the candidate trying to "wing it") so doesn't take long.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>All up, the interview would be about 1.5 hrs.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I'd never ask a brain teaser or puzzle question either, in my eyes, that just makes you look like a tosser - leave them for the Monday morning meeting.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:06 AM, David O'Brien <<a href="mailto:Dave@iccs.co.nz" target="_blank">Dave@iccs.co.nz</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Just as a matter of interest, can you give an example of one of these tests?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David Brennan<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 31 July 2013 11:58 a.m.</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br><b>To:</b> 'NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Average Salary<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Aye. We have what we consider to be a reasonably easy first test and we only interview people with at least an A- average from University and yet more than half still fail the test. Admittedly we are looking for 100% correct but the test is simple enough that this shouldn’t be too high a bar, the answer is less than a dozen logic and arithmetic expressions.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>After the first test we have a harder second test which has a few subtleties which we don’t expect anyone to get in a test situation, this provides a better gauge than the first test which is basically a boolean gate, pass or fail.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Back to Steve’s question, you have to qualify what you mean as it depends on experience. A graduate developer worth hiring probably gets 45-55k in their first year I would say, and then goes up from there based on how they perform.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>David.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a> [<a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">mailto:delphi-bounces@listserver.123.net.nz</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy North<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 31 July 2013 11:23 a.m.<br><b>To:</b> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Average Salary</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>If you are looking to hire, I suggest you be prepared to pay for a good one. Make sure you have a good test though, my experience is that there are a lot of "guru", "expert", "senior" Delphi developers out there that are absolutely useless. Drag and drop code zombies.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The last time we hired (about 15 months ago) we sifted through about 50 (sometimes questionable) resumes and interviewed 8. Three of those walked out of the test at various stages (one read it and left - said we wouldn't like the answer he would give WTF!) and the test wasn't super hard - I wrote it :-) (we were looking to fill a senior level position). It isn't always about completing the test, but having a candidate acknowledge they don't know something is 400% better than them trying to talk around it and guess.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>At the end of the day, I don't consider any of the people I work with "average" developers. I wouldn't like to work with average people.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 6:40 AM, Steve Peacocke <<a href="mailto:steve@peacocke.net" target="_blank">steve@peacocke.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hi Everyone,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I was just wondering, what is the average salary for a permanent Delphi developer out there in the marketplace these days?<span style='color:#888888'><br clear=all></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#888888'><br>Steve Peacocke<br>Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B64%20220%20612-611" target="_blank">+64 220 612-611</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#888888'><a href="http://nz.linkedin.com/pub/steve-peacocke/1/a06/489" target="_blank">Linkedin Professional Profile</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br>_______________________________________________<br>NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list<br>Post: <a href="mailto:delphi@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">delphi@listserver.123.net.nz</a><br>Admin: <a href="http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi" target="_blank">http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi</a><br>Unsubscribe: send an email to <a href="mailto:delphi-request@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">delphi-request@listserver.123.net.nz</a> with Subject: unsubscribe<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br>_______________________________________________<br>NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list<br>Post: <a href="mailto:delphi@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">delphi@listserver.123.net.nz</a><br>Admin: <a href="http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi" target="_blank">http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi</a><br>Unsubscribe: send an email to <a href="mailto:delphi-request@listserver.123.net.nz" target="_blank">delphi-request@listserver.123.net.nz</a> with Subject: unsubscribe<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><br>_______________________________________________<br>NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list<br>Post: <a href="mailto:delphi@listserver.123.net.nz">delphi@listserver.123.net.nz</a><br>Admin: <a href="http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi" target="_blank">http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi</a><br>Unsubscribe: send an email to <a href="mailto:delphi-request@listserver.123.net.nz">delphi-request@listserver.123.net.nz</a> with Subject: unsubscribe<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>