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I'm suspecting that everyone on this list is not a candidate for the
Starter Edition - or am I wrong?<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Alister Christie
Computers for People
Ph: 04 471 1849 Fax: 04 471 1266
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.salespartner.co.nz">http://www.salespartner.co.nz</a>
PO Box 13085
Johnsonville
Wellington </pre>
<br>
On 1/02/2011 4:02 p.m., Kyley Harris wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:AANLkTi=3he8xhd3-yHZd6DF0AETFrSbcoY2XoRw3+Yct@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">I may be wrong, but I thought the Pro version
introduced the DB section and the Tdataset.<br>
<br>
Personally. I dont even use the VCL in a visual way.. and I never
insteall anything into the IDE because it always seems to bite me
later.<br>
<br>
I've certainly never needed the enterprise features for anything.
<br>
<br>
Jolyon is right though in that each person has individual needs.
The entire thing is component driven.. so wouldn't it be great if
there was just 1 nice low price that almost everyone could afford
for the equivalent of a Pro version, and then they charge each
Component suite at whatever price they feel it merits and do away
with the concept of an enterprise licence.<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 3:51 PM, David
Brennan <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dugdavid@dbsolutions.co.nz">dugdavid@dbsolutions.co.nz</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-NZ">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">I thought Standard was mostly
equivalent to the Pro version in terms of
functionality? Or is it crippled in some fashion?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium;
border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181,
196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;
padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz"
target="_blank">delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz"
target="_blank">delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Leigh Wanstead<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 1 February 2011 3:11 p.m.
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<b>To:</b> NZ Borland Developers Group -
Delphi List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Delphi Starter
Edition</div>
</div>
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Hi Kyley,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I agree
with you. I wish Pro licenses to everyone for $300
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">J</span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Have a
nice day</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Regards</span><span
style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Leigh</span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium;
border-style: solid none none; border-color:
rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color
-moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:
10pt;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz"
target="_blank">delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz"
target="_blank">delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kyley Harris<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 1 February 2011 3:05 p.m.<br>
<b>To:</b> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi
List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Delphi Starter Edition</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">To be quite
honest..</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">if I was
*new* and looking at a software language, then
what would be far more appealing to me would be
a licence that allowed me to fully try before I
buy, without restrictions. a Cut Down Version
wont make me decide to buy a fully fledged
version, because Id have no experience seeing if
it does what I think it should. A time period
suitable enough for me to determine if the
product is valuable to me.. After that time
period, I'd either expect to pay a fair price,
or to stop using it.. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I'd rather
Embacardo targeted selling Pro licenses to
everyone for $300 rather than a minority at
$3000. lol .. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Its times
like these when I fondly remember Turbo Pascal
7.0 and how wonderful its documentation and
simplicity were ;D (and its price)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Tue,
Feb 1, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Jolyon Smith <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jsmith@deltics.co.nz"
target="_blank">jsmith@deltics.co.nz</a>>
wrote:</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Who said
anything about providing “unrestricted
full access licenses on an honour system”
? That’s an extrapolation of an argument
nobody is making to a conclusion that
nobody is suggesting.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">All I am
saying is that imposing a license
restriction could be counter-productive.
We can sit and argue the cases that it
works for vs the cases that it doesn’t
until the cows come home, all from the
comfortable position of already having
access to the
Professional/Enterprise/Architect licenses
we already use.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I simply
suggest the view that US$1000 doesn’t work
in a sufficiently high proportion of
possible and realistic scenarios that it
could act as a strong DISincentive to the
very people that the new Start Edition is
intended to attract. The marketing
message is “GET DELPHI FOR $200 NOW [<i>and
be forced to pay $800 more later or lose
what you already paid for</i>]” vs “FREE
FOREVER”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">That’s not
to say that Delphi itself must be “FREE
FOREVER”, only that it needs a better
message than this bait-and-switch if it is
to realistically *<b>compete</b>* with
FREE FOREVER in the space that we are told
this new edition is targeted at, and that
IS the space it is competing in.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">And do not
forget that I still think this is better
than what we had before. </span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">J</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The bigger
[potential] problem being that if/when the
Starter Edition *<b>fails</b>* to attract
these new users, Embarcadero will turn
around and declare them a failure, that
there isn’t a market for an entry level
Delphi, and that this vindicates and
justifies the higher pricing.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Turbo
Redux.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium;
border-style: solid none none; border-color:
rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color
-moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz"
target="_blank">delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz"
target="_blank">delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kyley Harris<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 1 February 2011
14:16</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>To:</b> NZ Borland Developers Group
- Delphi List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Delphi
Starter Edition</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I understand all your
points..</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now.. Lets do a
survey of Delphi developers.. How many
people are there writing software in
delphi and providing unrestricted full
access licenses on an Honor system
with the expectation that their
clients might pay them later?
excluding any trial limits, feature
restrictions etc etc, but relying on a
paper licence unsigned that states
some rules that might get enforced.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think the reality
is that people will take it if it
seems fair, and wont take it if it
doesn't, but there isn't much point
worrying about it. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">its a buyers market
and the real loss will be to embacardo
if they have made a bad decision. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
Whats that saying.. Better a million
people pirating my software than
pirating the competitions. :)
eventually there is a return from
someone. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 1,
2011 at 1:45 PM, Jolyon Smith <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jsmith@deltics.co.nz"
target="_blank">jsmith@deltics.co.nz</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">I find it
depressing that people still
can’t seem to get away from
thinking that people will set
out to “cheat” Embarcadero by
gaming reasonable license
restrictions.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Most
(“most” not “all”) people only
“cheat” when they feel that
the rules aren’t fair in the
first place.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">And as for
profit being harder to track
than revenue, just how are
Embarcadero going to
track/monitor revenue in this
area in the first place? What
earnings DO they recognise as
relevant revenue? Without
requiring that only registered
companies qualify for
purchasing these licenses, how
do they expect to compel a set
of audited accounts from their
Starter licensees ?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">My guess:
They won’t be enforcing the
license terms in this way at
all. They will operate an
“honour” system, in which
case, making that system fair
and reasonable is the best way
to ensure compliance.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">But the
idea is to attract new users,
right? Users who do Delphi as
a hobby or who have an idea
that *<b>might</b>* make a
little money (or maybe a lot,
tho in that latter case I
don’t think Pro license costs
will necessarily hold them
back).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Comparing
to another of my hobbies
(photography), if I spend
$1000 on printing photos that
I sell to my
friends/colleagues for $1000,
have I “made” $1000 ?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">If
Embarcadero were licensing me
my camera they would say
“yes”, even tho my hobby is a
break-even activity for me
(allowing only for directly
measureable costs, and not
other costs that are
involved). And once I tip
over that $1000 <u>revenue</u>,
my license costs go up
immensely, and if I don’t pay
up, not only do I not get
access to the
bigger/better/brighter
features (that I don’t
actually need, since by
definition I didn’t use them
to get that far in the first
place) but I also lose the
right to use the tools I
already paid for!!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">I think I’d
choose a different camera,
wouldn’t you ?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">In the
grand scheme of things I don’t
see the idea of a revenue
limit a problem per se, but
$1000 really isn’t very much
and by no means establishes an
“ability to pay” for
Professional licenses on an
on-going basis. What if I
“earn” $1000 in the first 6
months from a flood of
donations from interested
users etc. I am compelled to
shell out $800 to remain
within the terms of my
license. But then the
donations dry up after that,
reducing to perhaps $500-$800
over the next 12 months?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">I don’t
think this is an entirely
fantastical situation to
imagine.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Don’t get
me wrong, I think Delphi
Starter is better than what we
had before (i.e. nothing) but
this particular aspect of the
license is worrying (in terms
of what it suggests in the
thinking of those behind the
initiative).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div style="border-width: 1pt
medium medium; border-style:
solid none none; border-color:
rgb(181, 196, 223)
-moz-use-text-color
-moz-use-text-color; padding:
3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt;"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt;"
lang="EN-US"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz"
target="_blank">delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz</a>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz"
target="_blank">delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kyley
Harris<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 1
February 2011 13:04</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>To:</b> NZ Borland
Developers Group - Delphi
List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG]
Delphi Starter Edition</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would think
Students too.. </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">And I guess
if you actually start making a
$1000 they figure its enough
to pay for the software and
then keep making money :D</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue,
Feb 1, 2011 at 12:58 PM,
Jeremy North <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jeremy.north@gmail.com"
target="_blank">jeremy.north@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:
12pt;">> The $1000
revenue limit is also
bizarrely low imho -
it's high enough to<br>
> worm it's way
around any
"non-commercial use"
restriction, but not
high<br>
> enough to
realistically be
anything other than a
"non-commercial use
only"<br>
> restriction in all
but name.</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is
targeted at open source or
hobbyists developers. I
don't see any<br>
issues with the limit.<br>
<br>
Is the $1000 per year or a
running total?</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
-- <br>
Kyley Harris<br>
Harris Software<br>
+64-21-671-821</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Kyley Harris<br>
Harris Software<br>
+64-21-671-821</p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Kyley Harris<br>
Harris Software<br>
+64-21-671-821</span></p>
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<br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Kyley Harris<br>
Harris Software<br>
+64-21-671-821<br>
<pre wrap="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list
Post: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:delphi@delphi.org.nz">delphi@delphi.org.nz</a>
Admin: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi">http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi</a>
Unsubscribe: send an email to <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:delphi-request@delphi.org.nz">delphi-request@delphi.org.nz</a> with Subject: unsubscribe</pre>
</blockquote>
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