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Comments in <font color="#990000">Red</font>, although much of this
argument now falls into the "who cares?" category.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Alister Christie
Computers for People
Ph: 04 471 1849 Fax: 04 471 1266
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.salespartner.co.nz">http://www.salespartner.co.nz</a>
PO Box 13085
Johnsonville
Wellington </pre>
<br>
On 22/10/2010 10:38 a.m., Jolyon Smith wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:004f01cb7168$4b8cd790$e2a686b0$@co.nz"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Adding green. </span><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">J</span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color:
rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;
padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";" lang="EN-US">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz">delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz">mailto:delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David
Brennan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, 22 October 2010 09:55<br>
<b>To:</b> 'NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Delphi Specials<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(95,
73, 122);">My comments in a lovely purple. ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color:
rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;
padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";" lang="EN-US">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz">delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz">mailto:delphi-bounces@delphi.org.nz</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jolyon
Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, 22 October 2010 8:53 a.m.<br>
<b>To:</b> 'NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DUG] Delphi Specials<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -18pt;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">Ø<span style="font:
7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif"; color:
black;">Aw nuts
you are just being a stirrer.</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Why is pointing out facts
considered stirring?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(95, 73, 122);">You obviously have pretty strong
feelings about it Jolyon but
you jumped on John pretty hard and if I was him I
would certainly feel you were
being deliberately antagonistic. You didn’t just point
out facts, you had an
axe to grind.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">Well, as did John I’d say. Sauce
for the goose too rich for the
gander ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -18pt;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">Ø<span style="font:
7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif"; color:
black;">What I am
saying is do not punish Borland and Embarcadero for
making a product that was
reliable and well usable for 10+ years. Reward them
by spending a small
amount of money to keep them in business. And into the
bargain enjoy a much
better version of Delphi.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">How about Embarcadero punishing
their customers for not having
provided compelling reasons to upgrade?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(95, 73, 122);">Aren’t they two sides of the same
issue? Either
Embarcadero/Codegear/Borland haven’t added anything to
Delphi since version 5
OR version 5 was so good that you didn’t need any of
the things they added.</span><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">I’m not following the point here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">1 – John passed judgement (“nuts”)
on somebody elses upgrade (or
lack of) decisions based on his OWN experience and
position.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">2 – I merely offered that perhaps
other people may be in a
different position and that the “nuts” thing is to
make judgements on others without
taking their position into account (and using
inaccurate information in the
process).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(95, 73, 122);">You believe the former and refuse
to accept that perhaps part of
the reason is that v5 was so good.</span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">How on earth do you reach that
conclusion?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">The original poster</span></u><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"> hadn’t upgraded since Delphi
4 – by definition they haven’t felt the need to
upgrade. Arguing about whether
they were given reasons to upgrade is meaningless.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">And I simply pointed out that John’s
suggestion that they
upgrade NOW was to ignore the fact that Embarcadero
have slammed the door on
that option for the original poster. They no longer
have the choice of
upgrading, they are now faced with having to buy a NEW
USER license, from
scratch.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">Is that grinding an axe? I see it
correcting a point of
accuracy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">On which score: I myself purchased
Delphi 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and
7 licenses for myself. I now use Delphi 2006 and 2010
licenses provided by my
employer but have stopped spending <u>my own</u>
money on Delphi.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">The work I do with Delphi in my own
time brings me no financial
reward, so the cost of upgrades is just that – a
cost. Not an investment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(95, 73, 122);">I’m guessing you have never
received an OEM version of Windows
then? I believe most copies of Windows sold are OEM
which are locked (in
theory) to the computer they are sold with.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">That “in theory” part is important.
The “Windows Me” license I
upgraded to XP from was “in theory” an OEM license
tied to the machine it was
purchased with. But my XP Upgrade installation media
of course knew nothing
about that and so did not complain when I installed in
on the subsequent
machines, having provided suitable original media for
it to validate upgrade eligibility
at that time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">Compare and contrast with purchasing
a valid license for Delphi and
then having to go around the houses and jump through
numerous hoops in order
for it to acknowledge that yes indeed I am entitled to
“activate” and use the
software I have bought and paid for.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#990000">Hmmm, saying that you find it easy to violate
a license agreement for one piece of software (if that was what
you saying about your XP upgrade license), to argue that that it
should be easier to install some other product legitimately is a
bit dubious. Personally I hate software activation with some
centralized server (what happens when the company goes out of
business), but have never had any trouble installing Delphi on a
machine - getting our products to compile in it is a different
question entirely however ;-) </font><br>
<blockquote cite="mid:004f01cb7168$4b8cd790$e2a686b0$@co.nz"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">And why do you feel so less
inclined to reward Microsoft for
making a reliable, well usable product when doing so
costs far, FAR less than
rewarding Borland (who produced a couple of REAL
stinkers, products that were
neither reliable nor even barely usable, over the
years)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(95, 73, 122);">Sounds like John has purchased 8
copies of Windows, you don’t
think that is rewarding them? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">In his own words, he is grumpy about
it. I observe that he is
grumpy about rewarding Microsoft and yet is happy, and
<u>keen to encourage</u>
others, to reward Embarcadero whilst simultaneously
highlighting that they
provide a less generous service in a specific area, in
return for that reward
yet seemingly perceiving this as providing higher
value?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">Again, is it grinding an axe to
mention that Delphi updates
cease when a new version is released, while Windows
updates do not?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(95, 73, 122);">Borland blew it in a major way
around Delphi 8/2005, no question
about that and I can understand punishing them for it.
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">And more recently (at the risk of
getting sidetracked) Embarcadero
have blown it again (imho) with addressing Unicode and
64-bit separately,
creating TWO significant barriers to upgraders and
also failing to make good on
indications of 64-bit delivery and introducing new
priorities and changing
roadmaps and product direction without updating those
roadmaps until after the
fact.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#990000">I'm not overly keen on Mac and 64-bit support
(although I consider them nice to have), so my opinion on this is
not very strong. I don't think they have blown it, but certainly
they have disappointed many people. </font><font color="#990000">The
reason we don't have these yet is they don't want to generate
another Delphi 8/2005. My understanding is that Mac support is
effectively done, but 64 bit support still requires more work. If
anyone is passionate about these, they should get involved in the
beta program. </font><font color="#990000">I personally am far
more interested in iPhone and Android support.</font><br>
<blockquote cite="mid:004f01cb7168$4b8cd790$e2a686b0$@co.nz"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(95, 73, 122);">But at some point it becomes
cutting off your nose to spite your
face... anyone who develops seriously in Delphi needs
Delphi to be a viable
commercial product and that means being willing to
pony up for some money
occasionally in my opinion.</span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">You saw the part where I complain
that they do not provide an
option for me to spend the money that is worth it to
me?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);">I WANT to spend money with
Embarcadero, but they refuse to make
available a product that suits the use to which I wish
to put it at a price
that is reasonable and that I can afford when set
alongside all of the other
demands on my financial resources.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#990000">I Fully agree, Delphi is waaaay to expensive
for hobbyists and casual users. A $100 version or free version is
what is required, but how to do this is a difficult question. </font><br>
<blockquote cite="mid:004f01cb7168$4b8cd790$e2a686b0$@co.nz"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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