<div>"It is also in Java .. " </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I could smell Java on your breath!<br><br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 30/05/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Neven MacEwan</b> <<a href="mailto:neven@mwk.co.nz">neven@mwk.co.nz</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Richard<br><br>I cant agree that any "language/environment promotes bad design"<br>You may be suffering from technocratic snobbery :-)
<br><br>N<br><br>Richard Vowles wrote:<br>> That argument is fallacious, with enormous effort you can use almost any<br>> language to design good software - it is simply a question of effort.<br>> But when (a) the language/environment promotes bad design and (b) almost
<br>> all examples, and certainly all public examples that people learn from<br>> are hideous beyond imagining then it is most definitely the fault of the<br>> language.<br>><br>> I know this is going to sound bad, I am guilty of it as well, but it
<br>> only strengthens my argument. 95% of Delphi apps out there are a mess<br>> because that is what the language and framework and examples promoted.<br>> It was the way it was done. PHP suffers the same way - mess = way it is
<br>> done and nothing out there promotes a better way. The fact that most<br>> professional users of the product make great efforts to not use it in<br>> the "out of the box" fashion is neither here nor there. Doing that
<br>> defeats much of the "benefits" of the language/environment. Why I like<br>> ECO (and Bold before it) is because it brings the much needed structure<br>> of good software design and yet retains the benefits of Delphi
<br>> development. Some people in the Delphi development community have done<br>> this kind of thing already, and on the win32 platform - what percentage<br>> I don't know, but simply spitting out your HTML via XSL-T IMHO is just a
<br>> plaster IMHO.<br>><br>> Going back to Java - because I can, the current arguments in Java are<br>> pretty much over the presentation layer mechanism, business logic, OO,<br>> separation of concerns, security - all that stuff is generally done,
<br>> dusted and accepted - and it is done well and cleanly. From what I have<br>> seen, PHP does not have that stuff sorted. PHP5 could be different, it<br>> could be clean, but I don't know. But I doub't it.<br>
><br>> To carry on this discussion I would have to have a much greater<br>> knowledge of PHP than I do, so perhaps it is all ignorance. But given<br>> the PHP apps I have seen in the community (oscommerce, sugarcrm, various
<br>> others), PHP = struggle against the self inflicted chaos.<br>> ---<br>> Richard Vowles, Solutions Architect, Borland New Zealand<br>> email: <a href="mailto:richard.vowles@borland.com">richard.vowles@borland.com
</a><br>> phone: +64-9-9184573<br>> cell: +64-21-467747<br>> other: MSN <a href="mailto:richard.vowles@borland.com">richard.vowles@borland.com</a>, skype: rvowles<br>> blog: <a href="http://www.usergroup.org.nz/blogs/selectBlog.html?id=39769">
http://www.usergroup.org.nz/blogs/selectBlog.html?id=39769</a><br>><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: <a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@ns3.123.co.nz">delphi-bounces@ns3.123.co.nz</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@ns3.123.co.nz">
delphi-bounces@ns3.123.co.nz</a>]<br>> On Behalf Of Dennis Chuah<br>> Sent: Tuesday, 30 May 2006 12:59 p.m.<br>> To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List<br>> Subject: Re: [DUG] Scripting languages<br>>
<br>><br>> Just because software is poorly designed, doesn't mean to say the<br>> language is crap. I've seen plenty of poorly written Delphi code, parts<br>> of the VCL included, and we all know Delphi is far from crap.
<br>> osCommerce IS the abomination, not PHP.<br>><br>> Just like in ASP / JSP, embedding HTML is only an option. You don't<br>> have to use it. Personally, I generate all my HTML through XSLT. All<br>> my code needs to do is create the right XML data structure and the
<br>> presentation is all in XSLT.<br>><br>> ----- Original Message -----<br>> From: "Neven MacEwan" <<a href="mailto:neven@mwk.co.nz">neven@mwk.co.nz</a>><br>> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 12:43 PM
<br>><br>><br>>> Yes it is off topic but you started it!<br>>><br>>> PHP5's OO is a lot better and you could build a good framework in it<br>>> (it is probably your framework which is good not the language)
<br>>><br>>> Some things in PHP5 are great Autoload for class refs etc, I'd not<br>>> dismiss PHP.<br>>><br>>> As you know its not the language which it at fault with HTML dev, its<br>>> generally HTML itself but every time I see another golden bullet dev
<br>>> platform (Ruby on rails for example) I have a sly chuckle<br>>><br>>> The best bit is that you can make PHP 5 look a lot like Delphi<br>>><br>>> Neven<br>>><br>>><br>>>
<br>>> Richard Vowles wrote:<br>>>> Once I got to the retarded method they use for objects I just gave<br>> up.<br>>>> But this is off-topic.<br>>>><br>>>> Ever tried to understand what is going on in oscommerce? PHP begs
<br>>>> spaghetti coding - and I can't stand that method of building web<br>> pages.<br>>>> I have my own framework I have worked on for years, it is<br>>>> mega-productive, extremely clean and very extensible. It is also in
<br>> Java<br>>>> which is both good and bad. My role in DevCo will require me to use<br>> and<br>>>> promote both technologies, but I'd like to be able to use it in .NET<br>> as<br>>>> well.
<br>>>><br>>>> Richard<br>>>> ---<br>>>> Richard Vowles, Solutions Architect, Borland New Zealand<br>>>> email: <a href="mailto:richard.vowles@borland.com">richard.vowles@borland.com
</a><br>>>> phone: +64-9-9184573<br>>>> cell: +64-21-467747<br>>>> other: MSN <a href="mailto:richard.vowles@borland.com">richard.vowles@borland.com</a>, skype: rvowles<br>>>> blog: <a href="http://www.usergroup.org.nz/blogs/selectBlog.html?id=39769">
http://www.usergroup.org.nz/blogs/selectBlog.html?id=39769</a><br>>>><br>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>>>> From: <a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@ns3.123.co.nz">delphi-bounces@ns3.123.co.nz</a>
<br>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:delphi-bounces@ns3.123.co.nz">delphi-bounces@ns3.123.co.nz</a>]<br>>>> On Behalf Of Alister Christie<br>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 30 May 2006 11:54 a.m.<br>>>> To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
<br>>>> Subject: Re: [DUG] Scripting languages<br>>>><br>>>> Having done very little PHP I can't comment too much, however the bit<br>> of<br>>>> cut and paste I have done I found fairly easy to understand and
<br>> improve<br>>>> upon.<br>>>><br>>>> Do you consider it an abomination because of it's syntax (like say,<br>> they<br>>>> way VB is an abomination)?<br>>>><br>>>> _______________________________________________
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</a><br>>>><br>>>><br>>> --<br>>> Neven MacEwan (B.E. E&E)<br>>> Ph. 09 620 1356 Mob. 027 4749 062<br>>><br>>> New Address Details<br>>> ===================<br>>> MWK Computer Systems
<br>>> 1 Taumata Rd<br>>> Sandringham<br>>> Auckland<br>>><br>>> Ph 620 1356<br>>> Fx 620 1336<br>>><br>><br>><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>> --------<br>><br>><br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Delphi mailing list<br>>> <a href="mailto:Delphi@ns3.123.co.nz">Delphi@ns3.123.co.nz</a><br>>> <a href="http://ns3.123.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi">
http://ns3.123.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi</a><br>>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Delphi mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:Delphi@ns3.123.co.nz">Delphi@ns3.123.co.nz</a><br>>
<a href="http://ns3.123.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi">http://ns3.123.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi</a><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Delphi mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:Delphi@ns3.123.co.nz">
Delphi@ns3.123.co.nz</a><br>> <a href="http://ns3.123.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi">http://ns3.123.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi</a><br>><br>><br><br>--<br>Neven MacEwan (B.E. E&E)<br>Ph. 09 620 1356 Mob. 027 4749 062
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