[DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington

Fri Jul 4 10:12:48 NZST 2014

Hi Robo,

Thanks for the sample code.

That is great. But if the hacker understand that style code, the sample
code will be useless. I think the hacker of the website understand my
website traffic behavior.

Regards
Leigh

On 4 July 2014 09:49, Robo <robo555 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Quick sample code:
>
> <html>
> <ul>
>     <li><a href="view/123">Real Link</a></li>
>     <li style="display: none"><a href="view/456">Invisible Link</a></li>
>     <li style="position: absolute; left: -100px; top: -100px"><a
> href="view/789">Another non-visible Link</a></li>
> </ul>
> </html>
>
> Of course, the real thing would have these styles in a separate CSS file,
> and other methods to make it more subtle to hide the elements. Your backend
> just records visitors who's going to the invisible links.
>
> Nice thing about honey pot is it has negligible overhead/affect for
> legitimate users.
>
> Robo
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:16 PM, Leigh Wanstead <leigh.wanstead at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robo,
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Do you have a demo url/source code regarding to create a honeypot where
>> some elements are hidden from legitimate users using CSS, visitors clicking
>> on links in the hidden elements are recorded?
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> Regards
>> Leigh
>>
>>
>> On 3 July 2014 20:09, Robo <robo555 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The captcha is secondary, the primary is adding a delay. An unlucky user
>>> may get the delay if he refreshes too quickly, but a bot regularly hitting
>>> a delay would create a real hassle for it.
>>>
>>> As for the DOM, you can render the page using a different DOM each time.
>>>
>>> Another direction is the shadow ban. Don't use captcha, don't let the
>>> bot know they've been caught. You can also create a honeypot where some
>>> elements are hidden from legitimate users using CSS, visitors clicking on
>>> links in the hidden elements are recorded. Caught bots are fed fake data
>>> (even silently directed to entire fake website that has the same markup as
>>> normal pages), inifinite depth crawl trees, delays without timing out, etc
>>>
>>> Robo
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Leigh Wanstead <leigh.wanstead at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Robo,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the suggestion.
>>>>
>>>> The issue is once add captcha, the hacker will just simply treat this
>>>> as a signal and use another cookie and another ip.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding to render the website in Javascript, how are you going to
>>>> stop the browser driven by script? The hacker does not need to understand
>>>> the javascript. All he need is just grab dom element.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Leigh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3 July 2014 19:09, Robo <robo555 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As a user (and web developer) I would hate to see a website using png
>>>>> as text, not being able to copy and paste and unable to accomodate
>>>>> different screen resolutions (especially in age of tablets and phones) is a
>>>>> severe usability problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the method used by Amazon is to detect usage pattern, then
>>>>> implementing a delay for every 10 page views, add captcha, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> The better alternative to using PNG would be to render the website in
>>>>> JavaScript. So it looks normal when rendered on browsers, but the content
>>>>> or even the whole DOM is built from obfuscated JS. Don't build this
>>>>> yourself, plenty of existing code on the web.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 4:49 AM, Leigh Wanstead <
>>>>> leigh.wanstead at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Jolyon,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the answer. That was exactly I am doing for the last two
>>>>>> years. I managed to auto detect such bot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To solve this issue completely, I suggested to my boss to use image
>>>>>> instead of text to display html content. This way the hacker must use ocr
>>>>>> to extract the text from image. For normal website user, there is not much
>>>>>> downside to read a png file compare to read html text. I guess that I
>>>>>> manage to protect that valuable information :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Leigh
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3 July 2014 14:39, Jolyon Smith <jsmith at deltics.co.nz> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you can identify this person/bot then you should be able to
>>>>>>> incorporate some analytics into your website to identify them also.  i.e.
>>>>>>> if there is some obvious pattern to the requests (particular sequence of
>>>>>>> pages requested) or some frequency with which requests are made from the
>>>>>>> same IP, which identifies requests from that IP as unusual.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since you seem able to recognise this miscreant yourself, the first
>>>>>>> step would be to incorporate this analysis and to log when you believe your
>>>>>>> analysis has identified the bot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Once you are satisfied that your analysis is identifying only the
>>>>>>> bot/rogue user and not throwing up false positives you could then add code
>>>>>>> to add IP's identified by the analytics to your block list or however you
>>>>>>> choose to deal with it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You should also look into what capabilities, if any, your web server
>>>>>>> platform provides in this area (since this is hardly a new or unique
>>>>>>> problem - others will already have solved this problem in ways that may be
>>>>>>> applicable to you).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IIS for example has a Dynamic IP Restrictions Extension which
>>>>>>> potentially addresses at least some of these issues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.iis.net/learn/manage/configuring-security/using-dynamic-ip-restrictions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3 July 2014 14:22, Leigh Wanstead <leigh.wanstead at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Cameron,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for the reply.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is not google bot. The website is a public website, so I cannot
>>>>>>>> whitelist any ip.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually the basic question is how to stop robot to grab the
>>>>>>>> website? I believe the guy want to steal information or want to crash the
>>>>>>>> website (deny of service).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The trouble for me his log request ruin my web log and take up
>>>>>>>> server cpu resource. I sometimes ended up 99% request from him and it was
>>>>>>>> on going day and night.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>> Leigh
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3 July 2014 14:05, Cameron Hart <Cameron.Hart at flowsoftware.co.nz
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  sounds like google bot is indexing you J
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> you will need to determine his pattern so you can monitor and
>>>>>>>>> block it dynamically.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> sounds like it’s not a public site as you wont tell the address so
>>>>>>>>> you could whitelist your users IP’s and block everything else.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Cameron Hart *
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Flow Software Limited *
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    [image: Flow]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> PO Box 302 768, North Harbour
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *P *
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +64 9 476 3569
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Auckland 0751, New Zealand
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *M *
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +64 21 222 3569
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> www.flowsoftware.co.nz
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *E *
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> cameron.hart at flowsoftware.co.nz
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This message is intended for the addressee named above. It may
>>>>>>>>> contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended
>>>>>>>>> recipient of this message you must not use, copy, distribute or disclose it
>>>>>>>>> to anyone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   P Please consider the environment before printing this email
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *From:* delphi-bounces at listserver.123.net.nz [mailto:
>>>>>>>>> delphi-bounces at listserver.123.net.nz] *On Behalf Of *Leigh
>>>>>>>>> Wanstead
>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, 3 July 2014 2:02 p.m.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *To:* NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have a question for you guys related to how to be a good
>>>>>>>>> developer to solve the problem :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am developing a website and someone is using some sorts of
>>>>>>>>> script to drive a browser to grab all the data from the website. I cannot
>>>>>>>>> use login method. I cannot use recaptcha at the time they use the website.
>>>>>>>>> I am already using cookie to log behavior. That guy always clear the cookie
>>>>>>>>> after I detected him. He is always changing ip address if I block him from
>>>>>>>>> that ip address. He is using the ip all over the world i.e. Australia, NZ,
>>>>>>>>> usa, Russia.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What to do?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I guess the hacker is not in this email list, so it is ok to
>>>>>>>>> discuss it. And please do not ask me the website name I am developing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Leigh
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3 July 2014 13:29, Steve Peacocke <steve at peacocke.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think there's another few sides to this as well and it all
>>>>>>>>> depends on "your" definition of a good developer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Having lead technical teams for a number of years, I know that you
>>>>>>>>> can have not only different skill levels, but different knowledge and
>>>>>>>>> specialised areas even within senior developers. In any team, developers
>>>>>>>>> have their own specialisations relating to the type of work that the
>>>>>>>>> company does. Work can often be given to them because they are the one
>>>>>>>>> member in the team who knows about this or that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  For example, I know very senior developers who have never created
>>>>>>>>> a component in their lives, or others who are well known and seen as some
>>>>>>>>> of the very best in the industry, but may never have done a complete
>>>>>>>>> application design. Others may never have created a DLL or linked to
>>>>>>>>> external hardware.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I do have a real problem with this "ask specific questions" way to
>>>>>>>>> determine if they are a good developer. I know of some who would ask
>>>>>>>>> university-type questions to explain some specific UML design without
>>>>>>>>> realising that other companies don't actually use  UML's, or some others
>>>>>>>>> who are convinced you are not a good developer if you can't describe some
>>>>>>>>> OO phrase exactly by the book without realising that no-one actually speaks
>>>>>>>>> that language outside of university, despite the fact that they program
>>>>>>>>> that way by nature.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I do remember being once asked to explain the difference between
>>>>>>>>> some obscure technical terms to do with encapsulation (I had never heard a
>>>>>>>>> programmer utter those words since coming out of university), but was able
>>>>>>>>> to then totally stump the interviewer when I asked back if they could
>>>>>>>>> explain the difference between parent and owner.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A Senior Developer in any of the teams that I have lead or worked
>>>>>>>>> in could be more easily described by the amount of real world abilities to
>>>>>>>>> problem solving and delivery to the users expectations, and their
>>>>>>>>> interaction with the customer, yet a good programmer would be one that
>>>>>>>>> could program a specific given task - there is a difference.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for getting a coy of some old code - yes, that might be good
>>>>>>>>> but I tend to know programmers who hoard their precious code chunk, taking
>>>>>>>>> it with them everywhere and can produce it immediately. On the other hand,
>>>>>>>>> I have an old SQL builder program that I add to over the years and use to
>>>>>>>>> learn new ways of doing things with and learn how to get under the hood of
>>>>>>>>> the database and data structures - but I'd hate for others to see that code
>>>>>>>>> as it's forever a work in progress and used solely to learn (although the
>>>>>>>>> application is still in use around the world).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Steve Peacocke
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +64 220 612-611
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/07/2014, at 12:45 pm, Jolyon Smith <jsmith at deltics.co.nz>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  I'd say that if you already have sufficient doubt to trust them
>>>>>>>>> to honestly represent their own work then it doesn't really matter what the
>>>>>>>>> code looks like, whoever's code it may be.  ;)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3 July 2014 12:35, Jeremy North <jeremy.north at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also how do you know they actually wrote it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Jolyon Smith <
>>>>>>>>> jsmith at deltics.co.nz> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One possible problem with asking to look at old code is that this
>>>>>>>>> would often break confidentiality requirements with a previous
>>>>>>>>> employer/client.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I also have to admit that when I read some (*SOME*!) of my old
>>>>>>>>> code it gives me the shivers.  People can get better over time y'know.  :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think perhaps a better approach might be to ask someone what
>>>>>>>>> they *think* of the code they wrote in the past.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3 July 2014 12:03, Leigh Wanstead <leigh.wanstead at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To know if he/she is a good developer is very easy. Just read the
>>>>>>>>> code he/she wrote in the past.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3 July 2014 11:51, Jolyon Smith <jsmith at deltics.co.nz> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As you say John, the measure of "good" is a complex issue and may
>>>>>>>>> even vary from project to project according to the needs of those projects.
>>>>>>>>>  Technical proficiency (in any specific area) , mentoring skills or
>>>>>>>>> knowledge (OO or again, in whatever area) can all be gained as and when
>>>>>>>>> needed but may or may not be relevant to a particular project.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ultimately it comes down to a combination of knowledge and
>>>>>>>>> approach, and the "fit" in these areas that a developer has with the needs
>>>>>>>>> of any particular project.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In my experience, the best developers are the curious and caring
>>>>>>>>> ones.  By which I don't mean the ones that people raise an eyebrow to/at
>>>>>>>>> and who get all teary eyed at a soppy movie, but who - when faced with a
>>>>>>>>> problem or a challenge - seek first to fully understand it before rolling
>>>>>>>>> up their sleeves and cutting code.  And when they do produce code, they
>>>>>>>>> care about the clarity and structure of it.  "Working code" isn't good
>>>>>>>>> enough for such people, it must also have some aesthetic other quality.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> i.m.e more often than not, ugly code turns eventually out to be
>>>>>>>>> wrong code.  I know when I'm on the right track to a solution because it
>>>>>>>>> not only works, but it makes a sort of obvious sense and has a certain
>>>>>>>>> elegance that cannot be simply designed in.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But, as I say, it's a highly complex area and I don't think there
>>>>>>>>> is a simple check list of qualities that categorically identify a "good
>>>>>>>>> developer".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which is perhaps why it is also difficult to determine the value
>>>>>>>>> of one, resulting in the tendency to place value on more easily measured
>>>>>>>>> qualities, such as scarcity, experience (as measured in years), etc etc
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3 July 2014 11:20, John Bird <johnkbird at paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OK that begs a further discussion!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What in your eyes makes a developer “good” as opposed to thinking
>>>>>>>>> they are good – specific qualities please of what the good qualities are.
>>>>>>>>> I am wondering if there are many opinions of what a “good” programmer is
>>>>>>>>> which might explain why some think they are good whilst others think they
>>>>>>>>> are not.  What are the more objective measures?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have worked on numerous projects the last few years and seen a
>>>>>>>>> lot of different talents.  Some that stick out in my experience are:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    - Technical proficiency – ie knowing already what is likely to
>>>>>>>>>    be the best technology to use to tackle a new problem
>>>>>>>>>    - OO depth.   Is it innate or learned?   How is it best
>>>>>>>>>    learned?
>>>>>>>>>    - Ability to mentor and guide others through existing code
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Curious to hear specifics from you as you have the reputation of
>>>>>>>>> a Delphi authority!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *From:* Jeremy North <jeremy.north at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 3, 2014 10:23 AM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *To:* NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
>>>>>>>>> <delphi at listserver.123.net.nz>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know here (Australia) we would happily pay decent salaries if we
>>>>>>>>> found Delphi developers that were actually good and didn't just *think*
>>>>>>>>> they were good.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Stefan Mueller <
>>>>>>>>> muellers at orcl-toolbox.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a Swiss Delphi Developer living in New Zealand I find that
>>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Switzerland isn’t exactly at the top of my mind when I think about
>>>>>>>>> the “value for bucks” for outsourcing work to – not because you don’t get
>>>>>>>>> the quality, but because salaries there are almost twice what you would
>>>>>>>>> have to pay here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Stefan Müller*,
>>>>>>>>> R&D Manager
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *ORCL* *Toolbox Ltd.*
>>>>>>>>> Auckland, New Zealand
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> P Please consider the environment before printing this email
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This message is intended for the adresse named above and may
>>>>>>>>> contain privileged or confidential information.
>>>>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient of this message you must not
>>>>>>>>> use, copy, distribute or disclose it to anyone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *From:* delphi-bounces at listserver.123.net.nz [mailto:
>>>>>>>>> delphi-bounces at listserver.123.net.nz] *On Behalf Of *Tony
>>>>>>>>> Blomfield
>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, 3 July 2014 9:29 a.m.
>>>>>>>>> *To:* 'NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List'
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gary.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you would like to send the details to me I will have a chat
>>>>>>>>> with them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately we have had such a bad run with Kiwi Developers we
>>>>>>>>> moved our R&D over to Switzerland last year where we get much more cost
>>>>>>>>> effective results.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyway, I’d like to assess the person myself to see if they are
>>>>>>>>> suitable.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kind regards.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tony Blomfield
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *From:* delphi-bounces at listserver.123.net.nz [
>>>>>>>>> mailto:delphi-bounces at listserver.123.net.nz
>>>>>>>>> <delphi-bounces at listserver.123.net.nz>] *On Behalf Of *Gary T.
>>>>>>>>> Benner
>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 2 July 2014 2:32 p.m.
>>>>>>>>> *To:* delphi at delphi.org.nz
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> HI All,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This just passed in if anyone can help:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Permanent Developer available in Wellington.*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Experienced Senior Delphi Developer looking for a permanent role
>>>>>>>>> in or around Wellington. *
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Open to remote work. Also open to learning a new language if
>>>>>>>>> needed. Experienced in picking up code from others and looking after legacy
>>>>>>>>> systems as well as new development.*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Also experienced as a Development Manager and Product Management.*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyone with an opportunity can email me at gary at benner.co.nz and
>>>>>>>>> I'll pass it on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> List Admin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gary Benner MNZCS ITCP
>>>>>>>>> Information Technology Certified Professional
>>>>>>>>> Onlearn Limited <http://www.onlearn.co.nz> - Online Learning
>>>>>>>>> Hosting & Support, Training & Content Development
>>>>>>>>> 123 Internet Limited <http://www.123.net.nz> - Managed Web
>>>>>>>>> Hosting, Virtualisation, High Availability Systems & Cluster Technologies
>>>>>>>>> Semantic Limited <http://www.semantic.co.nz> - Software
>>>>>>>>> Development & Systems Design, Online Education, e-Commerce
>>>>>>>>> Disaster Warning Systems Limited <http://www.diwa.co.nz> - Public
>>>>>>>>> Emergency Warning and Communication Systems
>>>>>>>>> *Mob:* 021 966 992
>>>>>>>>> *DDI:* +64 7 543 1206
>>>>>>>>> *Email:* gary at benner.co.nz
>>>>>>>>> *Skype:* garybenner
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ref#: 41006
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Post: delphi at listserver.123.net.nz
>>>>>>>>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-request at listserver.123.net.nz
>>>>>>>>> with Subject: unsubscribe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-request at listserver.123.net.nz
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-request at listserver.123.net.nz
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-request at listserver.123.net.nz
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-request at listserver.123.net.nz
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-request at listserver.123.net.nz
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-request at listserver.123.net.nz
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list
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>>>>>>>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-request at listserver.123.net.nz
>>>>>>>> with Subject: unsubscribe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list
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>>>>>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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