[DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington

Leigh Wanstead leigh.wanstead at gmail.com
Fri Jul 4 09:16:04 NZST 2014 

Hi Robo,

Thanks

Do you have a demo url/source code regarding to create a honeypot where
some elements are hidden from legitimate users using CSS, visitors clicking
on links in the hidden elements are recorded?

TIA

Regards
Leigh


On 3 July 2014 20:09, Robo <robo555 at gmail.com> wrote:

> The captcha is secondary, the primary is adding a delay. An unlucky user
> may get the delay if he refreshes too quickly, but a bot regularly hitting
> a delay would create a real hassle for it.
>
> As for the DOM, you can render the page using a different DOM each time.
>
> Another direction is the shadow ban. Don't use captcha, don't let the bot
> know they've been caught. You can also create a honeypot where some
> elements are hidden from legitimate users using CSS, visitors clicking on
> links in the hidden elements are recorded. Caught bots are fed fake data
> (even silently directed to entire fake website that has the same markup as
> normal pages), inifinite depth crawl trees, delays without timing out, etc
>
> Robo
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Leigh Wanstead <leigh.wanstead at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robo,
>>
>> Thanks for the suggestion.
>>
>> The issue is once add captcha, the hacker will just simply treat this as
>> a signal and use another cookie and another ip.
>>
>> Regarding to render the website in Javascript, how are you going to stop
>> the browser driven by script? The hacker does not need to understand the
>> javascript. All he need is just grab dom element.
>>
>> Regards
>> Leigh
>>
>>
>> On 3 July 2014 19:09, Robo <robo555 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> As a user (and web developer) I would hate to see a website using png as
>>> text, not being able to copy and paste and unable to accomodate different
>>> screen resolutions (especially in age of tablets and phones) is a severe
>>> usability problem.
>>>
>>> One of the method used by Amazon is to detect usage pattern, then
>>> implementing a delay for every 10 page views, add captcha, etc.
>>>
>>> The better alternative to using PNG would be to render the website in
>>> JavaScript. So it looks normal when rendered on browsers, but the content
>>> or even the whole DOM is built from obfuscated JS. Don't build this
>>> yourself, plenty of existing code on the web.
>>>
>>> Robo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 4:49 AM, Leigh Wanstead <leigh.wanstead at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jolyon,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the answer. That was exactly I am doing for the last two
>>>> years. I managed to auto detect such bot.
>>>>
>>>> To solve this issue completely, I suggested to my boss to use image
>>>> instead of text to display html content. This way the hacker must use ocr
>>>> to extract the text from image. For normal website user, there is not much
>>>> downside to read a png file compare to read html text. I guess that I
>>>> manage to protect that valuable information :-)
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Leigh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3 July 2014 14:39, Jolyon Smith <jsmith at deltics.co.nz> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If you can identify this person/bot then you should be able to
>>>>> incorporate some analytics into your website to identify them also.  i.e.
>>>>> if there is some obvious pattern to the requests (particular sequence of
>>>>> pages requested) or some frequency with which requests are made from the
>>>>> same IP, which identifies requests from that IP as unusual.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since you seem able to recognise this miscreant yourself, the first
>>>>> step would be to incorporate this analysis and to log when you believe your
>>>>> analysis has identified the bot.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once you are satisfied that your analysis is identifying only the
>>>>> bot/rogue user and not throwing up false positives you could then add code
>>>>> to add IP's identified by the analytics to your block list or however you
>>>>> choose to deal with it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You should also look into what capabilities, if any, your web server
>>>>> platform provides in this area (since this is hardly a new or unique
>>>>> problem - others will already have solved this problem in ways that may be
>>>>> applicable to you).
>>>>>
>>>>> IIS for example has a Dynamic IP Restrictions Extension which
>>>>> potentially addresses at least some of these issues.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.iis.net/learn/manage/configuring-security/using-dynamic-ip-restrictions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3 July 2014 14:22, Leigh Wanstead <leigh.wanstead at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Cameron,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the reply.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is not google bot. The website is a public website, so I cannot
>>>>>> whitelist any ip.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually the basic question is how to stop robot to grab the website?
>>>>>> I believe the guy want to steal information or want to crash the website
>>>>>> (deny of service).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The trouble for me his log request ruin my web log and take up server
>>>>>> cpu resource. I sometimes ended up 99% request from him and it was on going
>>>>>> day and night.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Leigh
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3 July 2014 14:05, Cameron Hart <Cameron.Hart at flowsoftware.co.nz>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  sounds like google bot is indexing you J
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> you will need to determine his pattern so you can monitor and block
>>>>>>> it dynamically.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> sounds like it’s not a public site as you wont tell the address so
>>>>>>> you could whitelist your users IP’s and block everything else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Cameron Hart *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Flow Software Limited *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    [image: Flow]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PO Box 302 768, North Harbour
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *P *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +64 9 476 3569
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Auckland 0751, New Zealand
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *M *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +64 21 222 3569
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> www.flowsoftware.co.nz
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *E *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cameron.hart at flowsoftware.co.nz
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This message is intended for the addressee named above. It may
>>>>>>> contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended
>>>>>>> recipient of this message you must not use, copy, distribute or disclose it
>>>>>>> to anyone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   P Please consider the environment before printing this email
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From:* delphi-bounces at listserver.123.net.nz [mailto:
>>>>>>> delphi-bounces at listserver.123.net.nz] *On Behalf Of *Leigh Wanstead
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, 3 July 2014 2:02 p.m.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *To:* NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a question for you guys related to how to be a good developer
>>>>>>> to solve the problem :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am developing a website and someone is using some sorts of script
>>>>>>> to drive a browser to grab all the data from the website. I cannot use
>>>>>>> login method. I cannot use recaptcha at the time they use the website. I am
>>>>>>> already using cookie to log behavior. That guy always clear the cookie
>>>>>>> after I detected him. He is always changing ip address if I block him from
>>>>>>> that ip address. He is using the ip all over the world i.e. Australia, NZ,
>>>>>>> usa, Russia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What to do?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess the hacker is not in this email list, so it is ok to discuss
>>>>>>> it. And please do not ask me the website name I am developing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leigh
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3 July 2014 13:29, Steve Peacocke <steve at peacocke.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think there's another few sides to this as well and it all depends
>>>>>>> on "your" definition of a good developer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having lead technical teams for a number of years, I know that you
>>>>>>> can have not only different skill levels, but different knowledge and
>>>>>>> specialised areas even within senior developers. In any team, developers
>>>>>>> have their own specialisations relating to the type of work that the
>>>>>>> company does. Work can often be given to them because they are the one
>>>>>>> member in the team who knows about this or that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  For example, I know very senior developers who have never created a
>>>>>>> component in their lives, or others who are well known and seen as some of
>>>>>>> the very best in the industry, but may never have done a complete
>>>>>>> application design. Others may never have created a DLL or linked to
>>>>>>> external hardware.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do have a real problem with this "ask specific questions" way to
>>>>>>> determine if they are a good developer. I know of some who would ask
>>>>>>> university-type questions to explain some specific UML design without
>>>>>>> realising that other companies don't actually use  UML's, or some others
>>>>>>> who are convinced you are not a good developer if you can't describe some
>>>>>>> OO phrase exactly by the book without realising that no-one actually speaks
>>>>>>> that language outside of university, despite the fact that they program
>>>>>>> that way by nature.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do remember being once asked to explain the difference between
>>>>>>> some obscure technical terms to do with encapsulation (I had never heard a
>>>>>>> programmer utter those words since coming out of university), but was able
>>>>>>> to then totally stump the interviewer when I asked back if they could
>>>>>>> explain the difference between parent and owner.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A Senior Developer in any of the teams that I have lead or worked in
>>>>>>> could be more easily described by the amount of real world abilities to
>>>>>>> problem solving and delivery to the users expectations, and their
>>>>>>> interaction with the customer, yet a good programmer would be one that
>>>>>>> could program a specific given task - there is a difference.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for getting a coy of some old code - yes, that might be good but
>>>>>>> I tend to know programmers who hoard their precious code chunk, taking it
>>>>>>> with them everywhere and can produce it immediately. On the other hand, I
>>>>>>> have an old SQL builder program that I add to over the years and use to
>>>>>>> learn new ways of doing things with and learn how to get under the hood of
>>>>>>> the database and data structures - but I'd hate for others to see that code
>>>>>>> as it's forever a work in progress and used solely to learn (although the
>>>>>>> application is still in use around the world).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve Peacocke
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +64 220 612-611
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/07/2014, at 12:45 pm, Jolyon Smith <jsmith at deltics.co.nz>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  I'd say that if you already have sufficient doubt to trust them to
>>>>>>> honestly represent their own work then it doesn't really matter what the
>>>>>>> code looks like, whoever's code it may be.  ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3 July 2014 12:35, Jeremy North <jeremy.north at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also how do you know they actually wrote it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Jolyon Smith <jsmith at deltics.co.nz>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One possible problem with asking to look at old code is that this
>>>>>>> would often break confidentiality requirements with a previous
>>>>>>> employer/client.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also have to admit that when I read some (*SOME*!) of my old code
>>>>>>> it gives me the shivers.  People can get better over time y'know.  :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think perhaps a better approach might be to ask someone what they
>>>>>>> *think* of the code they wrote in the past.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3 July 2014 12:03, Leigh Wanstead <leigh.wanstead at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To know if he/she is a good developer is very easy. Just read the
>>>>>>> code he/she wrote in the past.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3 July 2014 11:51, Jolyon Smith <jsmith at deltics.co.nz> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As you say John, the measure of "good" is a complex issue and may
>>>>>>> even vary from project to project according to the needs of those projects.
>>>>>>>  Technical proficiency (in any specific area) , mentoring skills or
>>>>>>> knowledge (OO or again, in whatever area) can all be gained as and when
>>>>>>> needed but may or may not be relevant to a particular project.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ultimately it comes down to a combination of knowledge and approach,
>>>>>>> and the "fit" in these areas that a developer has with the needs of any
>>>>>>> particular project.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my experience, the best developers are the curious and caring
>>>>>>> ones.  By which I don't mean the ones that people raise an eyebrow to/at
>>>>>>> and who get all teary eyed at a soppy movie, but who - when faced with a
>>>>>>> problem or a challenge - seek first to fully understand it before rolling
>>>>>>> up their sleeves and cutting code.  And when they do produce code, they
>>>>>>> care about the clarity and structure of it.  "Working code" isn't good
>>>>>>> enough for such people, it must also have some aesthetic other quality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i.m.e more often than not, ugly code turns eventually out to be
>>>>>>> wrong code.  I know when I'm on the right track to a solution because it
>>>>>>> not only works, but it makes a sort of obvious sense and has a certain
>>>>>>> elegance that cannot be simply designed in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But, as I say, it's a highly complex area and I don't think there is
>>>>>>> a simple check list of qualities that categorically identify a "good
>>>>>>> developer".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is perhaps why it is also difficult to determine the value of
>>>>>>> one, resulting in the tendency to place value on more easily measured
>>>>>>> qualities, such as scarcity, experience (as measured in years), etc etc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3 July 2014 11:20, John Bird <johnkbird at paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK that begs a further discussion!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What in your eyes makes a developer “good” as opposed to thinking
>>>>>>> they are good – specific qualities please of what the good qualities are.
>>>>>>> I am wondering if there are many opinions of what a “good” programmer is
>>>>>>> which might explain why some think they are good whilst others think they
>>>>>>> are not.  What are the more objective measures?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have worked on numerous projects the last few years and seen a lot
>>>>>>> of different talents.  Some that stick out in my experience are:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - Technical proficiency – ie knowing already what is likely to
>>>>>>>    be the best technology to use to tackle a new problem
>>>>>>>    - OO depth.   Is it innate or learned?   How is it best learned?
>>>>>>>    - Ability to mentor and guide others through existing code
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Curious to hear specifics from you as you have the reputation of a
>>>>>>> Delphi authority!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From:* Jeremy North <jeremy.north at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 3, 2014 10:23 AM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *To:* NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
>>>>>>> <delphi at listserver.123.net.nz>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know here (Australia) we would happily pay decent salaries if we
>>>>>>> found Delphi developers that were actually good and didn't just *think*
>>>>>>> they were good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Stefan Mueller <
>>>>>>> muellers at orcl-toolbox.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a Swiss Delphi Developer living in New Zealand I find that
>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Switzerland isn’t exactly at the top of my mind when I think about
>>>>>>> the “value for bucks” for outsourcing work to – not because you don’t get
>>>>>>> the quality, but because salaries there are almost twice what you would
>>>>>>> have to pay here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Stefan Müller*,
>>>>>>> R&D Manager
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *ORCL* *Toolbox Ltd.*
>>>>>>> Auckland, New Zealand
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> P Please consider the environment before printing this email
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This message is intended for the adresse named above and may contain
>>>>>>> privileged or confidential information.
>>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient of this message you must not
>>>>>>> use, copy, distribute or disclose it to anyone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From:* delphi-bounces at listserver.123.net.nz [mailto:
>>>>>>> delphi-bounces at listserver.123.net.nz] *On Behalf Of *Tony Blomfield
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, 3 July 2014 9:29 a.m.
>>>>>>> *To:* 'NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List'
>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gary.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you would like to send the details to me I will have a chat with
>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unfortunately we have had such a bad run with Kiwi Developers we
>>>>>>> moved our R&D over to Switzerland last year where we get much more cost
>>>>>>> effective results.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, I’d like to assess the person myself to see if they are
>>>>>>> suitable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kind regards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tony Blomfield
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From:* delphi-bounces at listserver.123.net.nz [
>>>>>>> mailto:delphi-bounces at listserver.123.net.nz
>>>>>>> <delphi-bounces at listserver.123.net.nz>] *On Behalf Of *Gary T.
>>>>>>> Benner
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 2 July 2014 2:32 p.m.
>>>>>>> *To:* delphi at delphi.org.nz
>>>>>>> *Subject:* [DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HI All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This just passed in if anyone can help:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Permanent Developer available in Wellington.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Experienced Senior Delphi Developer looking for a permanent role in
>>>>>>> or around Wellington. *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Open to remote work. Also open to learning a new language if
>>>>>>> needed. Experienced in picking up code from others and looking after legacy
>>>>>>> systems as well as new development.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Also experienced as a Development Manager and Product Management.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyone with an opportunity can email me at gary at benner.co.nz and
>>>>>>> I'll pass it on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> List Admin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gary Benner MNZCS ITCP
>>>>>>> Information Technology Certified Professional
>>>>>>> Onlearn Limited <http://www.onlearn.co.nz> - Online Learning
>>>>>>> Hosting & Support, Training & Content Development
>>>>>>> 123 Internet Limited <http://www.123.net.nz> - Managed Web Hosting,
>>>>>>> Virtualisation, High Availability Systems & Cluster Technologies
>>>>>>> Semantic Limited <http://www.semantic.co.nz> - Software Development
>>>>>>> & Systems Design, Online Education, e-Commerce
>>>>>>> Disaster Warning Systems Limited <http://www.diwa.co.nz> - Public
>>>>>>> Emergency Warning and Communication Systems
>>>>>>> *Mob:* 021 966 992
>>>>>>> *DDI:* +64 7 543 1206
>>>>>>> *Email:* gary at benner.co.nz
>>>>>>> *Skype:* garybenner
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ref#: 41006
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    ------------------------------
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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