[DUG] FW: Web development

[Colin Fraser]

We have moved some of our stuff to Java, and are quite happy so far.

In terms of rapid development (in the Java world), there are things like Spring Roo and Seam Forge, the latter being the newest and least documented...

I have had a little look, but nothing serious so can't really comment that much (other than, it looks good, but then so do so many things until you did a bit deeper).

In terms of wanting to stay away from HTML, CSS, etc, then there is Vaadin or even GWT (both Java related... we are playing with Vaadin at the moment).

The thing with Java is there are so many frameworks and so many options it is easy to go around in circles trying to pick (what you think is) the best one.

What we have used in a real project is JSF using Facelets and a little bit of Seam... there is a learning curve, but it is not too bad (we have not delved into Java EE, just using Tomcat).

The Java IDE's are also really great, we have settled on Eclipse, but you will find passionate battles about that, as well as for the frameworks.

Anyway, just thought I would through that in from left field...

Happy hunting.

Regards
Colin

On 3/06/2011, at 11:49 PM, Stefan Mueller wrote:

> I guess Jolon is still using MSIE, right? .. The developer tools that are
> built into Google Chrome browser for example are quite good for debugging
> HTML/CSS(and even JavaScript). Just right click on the elements whose markup
> you want to see and say "inspect" and it will show you all the code and css
> applied to the element with a nice little editor that allows you to play
> with and modify each property on the fly. Also, developer tools such as MS
> Visual Studio (I am doing mostly ASP.NET MVC stuff lately) aren't too bad
> either with features such as autocomplete/autolookups/warnings for
> non-closed html-tags and invalid markup/attributes, etc .... that makes
> writing valid HTML/CSS pretty easy. 
> 
> As for other opinions on this whole website development talk: I definitely
> would stay away from writing websites in Delphi. It might be ok to use if
> all you need is a small quick and dirty inhouse webapp or prototype .. but
> what you gain in familiarity by using Delphi is quickly offset by
> disadvantages. PHP/.NET/RoR have huge communities of developers - if you
> have a problem or need some example code/library then just google for it and
> you will most likely find something - whereas for Delphi it's mostly up to
> you to figure it out .... and then there is the thing about maintenance if
> you leave the company, will they still be able to find a Delphi developer to
> maintain and lock after the website?). I think it's better to go with more
> popular web development languages. 
> 
> Personally I am really happy developing with the ASP.NET MVC framework.
> Never really liked traditional ASP.NET WebForms (viewstate is just such a
> bloat and if you try to AJAX'ify the website things can quickly become very
> complicated and badly performing) - The new ASP.NET MVC on the other hand is
> absolutly fantastic in this regard and a joy to work with - the seperation
> of Data/GUI/Logic  (MVC development pattern) is much better and more modular
> then the intermingled mess ASP.NET WebForms was. 
> 
> I also heard a lot of good about Ruby on Rails. As far as development goes
> it sounds easy and fast - but seems to have a bit of scaling problems (if
> your projects require that, most don't). 
> 
> PHP is probably the most popular web-language, but never really got to like
> it. I don't like "weakly typed" script languages that just break during
> execution ... I like my code to be compiled and raise errors during
> compilation time if I made some mistake - makes developing/changing existing
> code/database tables so much easier and less error prone if you have
> everything "strong typed".       ASP.NET also has a couple of goodies that I
> probably would miss a lot in PHP  - like, automatic XSS injection
> prevention, URL-Rewriting, Localisation, Authorization (user login, roles,
> etc), HttpModules that allow you to plug directly into the web execution
> pipeline of the IIS webserver, etc. ... I think the ASP.NET framework makes
> writing secure and high performing websites a lot easier then PHP does.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Stefan 
>  
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: delphi-bounces at delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-bounces at delphi.org.nz] On
> Behalf Of Berend de Boer
> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 6:44 PM
> To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
> Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development
> 
>>>>>> "Jolyon" == Jolyon Smith <jsmith at deltics.co.nz> writes:
> 
>    Jolyon> but in the end got fed up with wrestling with HTML and CSS
>    Jolyon> - working with those technologies is like stepping back in
>    Jolyon> time in terms to tools and "debugging" etc, 
> 
> Really???? I would say that the available tools and capabilities are light
> years beyond what's offered.
> 
> And we're not even talking about the ease with which you create very nice
> interfaces, which would be impossible to create any other way.
> 
> --
> All the best,
> 
> Berend de Boer
> 
> 
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