[DUG] Fw: DelphiDroid

Tue Nov 30 16:25:05 NZDT 2010

As I understand many of the Android applications are written in a Google version of Java – they wrote their own clean room version of the Java Virtual Machine called Dalvik  which was optimised for low power consumption and memory use (register based).   But standard Java with the Android libraries can be compiled to run on Android.

The examples on the DelphiDroid project used C# and VS to read the DFM and create much (but not all of the program) as Java code.

I would guess a Delphi cross compiler is likely to aim at whatever VM and libraries runs commonly on Android.   I would imagine that loss of native code is a disadvantage, but portability over lots of processors and handsets would be easier, and that the Dalvik virtual machine is likely very well optimised for Android anyway so it would be a shrewd way to do it.   Also compiling or converting Delphi to Java code is likely to be not too difficult a job either.

Alternatively they could aim to give native code – depends on the processor in question and which gives best access to all the library goodies – I get the impression you might be able to do it either way (Java or native).

As a further reason for not going to native code, the whole original reason that Unix and linux were able to run on so much hardware was that as much of the OS as possible was not written in machine code – its all in C and libraries and has a huge number of API ‘s for C and other languages for all standard functionality.   I think pretty much only parts of device drivers have to be in machine code, and that a C compiler has to be available for a new processor.  This is another reason (on top of being free and tuned and debugged for 40 years) that the unix/linux kernel became universally available on everything from phones to supercomputers.    Android Dalvik applications run no doubt as a layer on the linux kernel calling the standard Unix/linux system calls so there is likely not much effort in making a Dalvik Virtual Machine for new phone architectures either.

As a aside - Not using the standard Java Virtual Machine has caused a law suit between Oracle and Google on the grounds that if they don’t use the JVM from Sun/Oracle they are violating the terms of use.   However Java is supposed to be open sourced so most observers think that Oracle is simply trying to get some revenue from Android – they are hoping Google will settle with damages in order to not hold up Android.   Typical behaviour apparently from Larry Ellison who’s motto is “not only does Oracle have to win, everyone else has to lose”

Most commentators think they have as much of a case as SCO suing Novell over ownership of parts of linux, or Microsoft suing linux users over supposed and unspecified intellectual property thefts – ie the chance of a snowball in a very hot place, and that Google did carefully write their Dalvik as a clean room version – ie they didn’t use JVM code.   Anyway Google shrewdly is not making any money from selling Android anyway – it gives it away – it makes ifs money from the services running on Android.

It would be similar to Embarcadero suing the Free Pascal project which has a Delphi compatible compiler if some large firm had started using that for commercial applications rather than buying the Delphi compiler.   Not worth suing an open source, but worth suing the firm using it for a commercial product in the spirit of all good patent trolls.    Or they might sue the Free Pascal project if they had got first to a 64-bit compiler or a cross to iPhone or Android compiler as blocking opportunities for their commercial products.   Most even loyal Delphi programmers would likely say “serves them (Embarcadero/Borland)  right for not getting there first that open source stole their thunder”.    Wait - Hold on! -  I think that so far Free Pascal is in fact ahead of Embarcadero in those areas...

John

Well, that’s exactly my point... “native” means compiled to machine code, in which case you need to say code for *which* machine...

For a more concrete example:  The Delphi compiler does not target the “IBM PC” – it targets Intel x86.

It also targets Windows on x86, but let us imagine that Windows was still NT and that NT still supported ALPHA hardware.  Delphi “targets” Windows, but it does not produce ALPHA executables since it only targets x86.

To say that Delphi targets Windows is not sufficient – you have to say “Windows x86”.

So when you say “targets Android”, this doesn’t appear to be sufficient information to be a reliable indication of any meaningful, intent, just highly speculative spit-balling (“Ya know, with this new compiler architecture we (or “they”) could support Android...”).

I would be interested to know where you heard the speculation... the source can be significant in ascertaining the reliability of some messages...  J

From: delphi-bounces at delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-bounces at delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Alister Christie
Sent: Tuesday, 30 November 2010 17:10
To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
Subject: Re: [DUG] DelphiDroid

>From what I heard it will be native - although all I've heard are rumors - certainly no statement of intent.

Alister ChristieComputers for PeoplePh: 04 471 1849 Fax: 04 471 1266http://www.salespartner.co.nzPO Box 13085JohnsonvilleWellington 
On 29/11/2010 4:19 p.m., Jolyon Smith wrote: 

Is that Android 1.5? 1.6? 2.1? 2.2?  Or will it be 3.0?

Apart from that, isn’t a “target” for a compiler a bit more than just an OS/platform/framework ... ?

If Delphi is to “target” Android then it must target the CPU architectures that Android itself runs on (with iPhone the distinction is blurred since only one phone hardware platform runs the OS – iPhone the OS is iPhone the hardware, to intents and purposes).

Android might be running on (currently) ARM-Cortex A7, A8, or A9  (as far as I can tell – I am not an Android owner or otherwise particularly interested in Android, so this is based on a few mins with my learned friend, Mr Google J)

From: delphi-bounces at delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-bounces at delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Alister Christie
Sent: Tuesday, 30 November 2010 14:11
To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
Subject: Re: [DUG] DelphiDroid

My understanding is that both Android and iPhone are being actively experimented with as targets for the compiler.  We'll probably hear more once we have OS/X, Win64 and Linux support, which I suspect that it would be at last 2 years away

Alister ChristieComputers for PeoplePh: 04 471 1849 Fax: 04 471 1266http://www.salespartner.co.nzPO Box 13085JohnsonvilleWellington 
On 29/11/2010 1:40 p.m., David Brennan wrote: 

I think Jolyon is right.

The difference between a proof of concept (which is basically what the guy has now) and a robust tool which handles the majority of Delphi features and libraries is enormous. Several orders of magnitude sounds about right to me (meaning 100-1000 times more difficult, or even more).

I agree with the general principle though that being able to build for Android (and/or iPhone and others) would be great. However I think the only way it could really be done in a decent way is by Embarcadero continuing to extend the back end compiler to support more and more target platforms. They have made a few references in recent times which suggest they hope to do this but only time will tell.

Cheers,

David.

From: delphi-bounces at delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-bounces at delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jeremy Coulter
Sent: Monday, 29 November 2010 1:23 p.m.
To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
Subject: Re: [DUG] Company closing

you should download it and make it do more then :-)

jeremy

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Jolyon Smith <jsmith at deltics.co.nz> wrote:

Is it a compiler?  Technically I mean - I'd call it a translator.  :)

I wonder how far it can go though, beyond the simple examples I mean.

Translating a push button and a call to ShowMessage() is one thing.  Being
able to translate a complex application with all the libraries that Android
must support strikes me as a number of orders of magnitude more complex.

-----Original Message-----
From: delphi-bounces at delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-bounces at delphi.org.nz] On

Behalf Of Alister Christie
Sent: Monday, 29 November 2010 12:39
To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
Subject: Re: [DUG] Company closing

Interestingly the compiler is written in C#

Alister Christie
Computers for People
Ph: 04 471 1849 Fax: 04 471 1266
http://www.salespartner.co.nz
PO Box 13085
Johnsonville
Wellington

On 29/11/2010 12:08 p.m., John Bird wrote:
>
?http://lenniedevilliers.blogspot.com/2010/09/delphi-for-android-sneak-previ
ew.html
>
> Just checked out the DelphiDroid - not sure what state its at but simple
> examples are at least working - see a sneak peek video at the above
address.
> Says been tested with "Delphi 6.0, 7.0, 2005, 2006 and 2010."
>
> This is exactly the sort of tools we need - why does Embarcadero not jump
> onto this asap???
>
>
> John
>
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