[DUG] Scripting languages

Tue May 30 20:25:58 NZST 2006

I don't think so - I mean, I am not saying the stuff I like is good and
the stuff you like is bad. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying
that PHP is bad. And VB as well actually. In the same fashion.

It is much the same way that Microsoft promotes a particular way of
solving software problems because that is what their technology can do.
Once they had technology that can do it better, they rapidly discount
the "previous method of doing things" and move on. At the moment they
are at Delphi 4 with ADO.NET for example.

I _am_ saying that if you are using PHP, you should really do yourself a
favour and look at something else. Now _that_ is technocratic snobbery
:-) And I'll be saying that to VB.NETers in the coming months I'm sure
:-) 

Richard
---
Richard Vowles, Solutions Architect, Borland New Zealand
email: richard.vowles at borland.com
phone: +64-9-9184573
cell: +64-21-467747
other: MSN richard.vowles at borland.com, skype: rvowles
blog: http://www.usergroup.org.nz/blogs/selectBlog.html?id=39769

-----Original Message-----
From: delphi-bounces at ns3.123.co.nz [mailto:delphi-bounces at ns3.123.co.nz]
On Behalf Of Neven MacEwan
Sent: Tuesday, 30 May 2006 1:51 p.m.
To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
Subject: Re: [DUG] Scripting languages

Richard

I cant agree that any "language/environment promotes bad design"
You may be suffering from technocratic snobbery :-)

N

Richard Vowles wrote:
> That argument is fallacious, with enormous effort you can use almost 
> any language to design good software - it is simply a question of
effort.
> But when (a) the language/environment promotes bad design and (b) 
> almost all examples, and certainly all public examples that people 
> learn from are hideous beyond imagining then it is most definitely the

> fault of the language.
> 
> I know this is going to sound bad, I am guilty of it as well, but it 
> only strengthens my argument. 95% of Delphi apps out there are a mess 
> because that is what the language and framework and examples promoted.
> It was the way it was done. PHP suffers the same way - mess = way it 
> is done and nothing out there promotes a better way. The fact that 
> most professional users of the product make great efforts to not use 
> it in the "out of the box" fashion is neither here nor there. Doing 
> that defeats much of the "benefits" of the language/environment. Why I

> like ECO (and Bold before it) is because it brings the much needed 
> structure of good software design and yet retains the benefits of 
> Delphi development. Some people in the Delphi development community 
> have done this kind of thing already, and on the win32 platform - what

> percentage I don't know, but simply spitting out your HTML via XSL-T 
> IMHO is just a plaster IMHO.
> 
> Going back to Java - because I can, the current arguments in Java are 
> pretty much over the presentation layer mechanism, business logic, OO,

> separation of concerns, security - all that stuff is generally done, 
> dusted and accepted - and it is done well and cleanly. From what I 
> have seen, PHP does not have that stuff sorted. PHP5 could be 
> different, it could be clean, but I don't know. But I doub't it.
> 
> To carry on this discussion I would have to have a much greater 
> knowledge of PHP than I do, so perhaps it is all ignorance. But given 
> the PHP apps I have seen in the community (oscommerce, sugarcrm, 
> various others), PHP = struggle against the self inflicted chaos.
> ---
> Richard Vowles, Solutions Architect, Borland New Zealand
> email: richard.vowles at borland.com
> phone: +64-9-9184573
> cell: +64-21-467747
> other: MSN richard.vowles at borland.com, skype: rvowles
> blog: http://www.usergroup.org.nz/blogs/selectBlog.html?id=39769
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: delphi-bounces at ns3.123.co.nz 
> [mailto:delphi-bounces at ns3.123.co.nz]
> On Behalf Of Dennis Chuah
> Sent: Tuesday, 30 May 2006 12:59 p.m.
> To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
> Subject: Re: [DUG] Scripting languages
> 
> 
> Just because software is poorly designed, doesn't mean to say the 
> language is crap.  I've seen plenty of poorly written Delphi code, 
> parts of the VCL included, and we all know Delphi is far from crap.
> osCommerce IS the abomination, not PHP.
> 
> Just like in ASP / JSP, embedding HTML is only an option.  You don't 
> have to use it.  Personally, I generate all my HTML through XSLT.  All

> my code needs to do is create the right XML data structure and the 
> presentation is all in XSLT.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neven MacEwan" <neven at mwk.co.nz>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 12:43 PM
> 
> 
>> Yes it is off topic but you started it!
>>
>> PHP5's OO is a lot better and you could build a good framework in it 
>> (it is probably your framework which is good not the language)
>>
>> Some things in PHP5 are great Autoload for class refs etc, I'd not 
>> dismiss PHP.
>>
>> As you know its not the language which it at fault with HTML dev, its

>> generally HTML itself but every time I see another golden bullet dev 
>> platform (Ruby on rails for example) I have a sly chuckle
>>
>> The best bit is that you can make PHP 5 look a lot like Delphi
>>
>> Neven
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard Vowles wrote:
>>> Once I got to the retarded method they use for objects I just gave
> up.
>>> But this is off-topic.
>>>
>>> Ever tried to understand what is going on in oscommerce? PHP begs 
>>> spaghetti coding - and I can't stand that method of building web
> pages.
>>> I have my own framework I have worked on for years, it is 
>>> mega-productive, extremely clean and very extensible. It is also in
> Java
>>> which is both good and bad. My role in DevCo will require me to use
> and
>>> promote both technologies, but I'd like to be able to use it in .NET
> as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> Richard
>>> ---
>>> Richard Vowles, Solutions Architect, Borland New Zealand
>>> email: richard.vowles at borland.com
>>> phone: +64-9-9184573
>>> cell: +64-21-467747
>>> other: MSN richard.vowles at borland.com, skype: rvowles
>>> blog: http://www.usergroup.org.nz/blogs/selectBlog.html?id=39769
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: delphi-bounces at ns3.123.co.nz
> [mailto:delphi-bounces at ns3.123.co.nz]
>>> On Behalf Of Alister Christie
>>> Sent: Tuesday, 30 May 2006 11:54 a.m.
>>> To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
>>> Subject: Re: [DUG] Scripting languages
>>>
>>> Having done very little PHP I can't comment too much, however the 
>>> bit
> of
>>> cut and paste I have done I found fairly easy to understand and
> improve
>>> upon.
>>>
>>> Do you consider it an abomination because of it's syntax (like say,
> they
>>> way VB is an abomination)?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Delphi mailing list
>>> Delphi at ns3.123.co.nz
>>> http://ns3.123.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Neven MacEwan (B.E. E&E)
>> Ph. 09 620 1356 Mob. 027 4749 062
>>
>> New Address Details
>> ===================
>> MWK Computer Systems
>> 1 Taumata Rd
>> Sandringham
>> Auckland
>>
>> Ph 620 1356
>> Fx 620 1336
>>
> 
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--
Neven MacEwan (B.E. E&E)
Ph. 09 620 1356 Mob. 027 4749 062

New Address Details
===================
MWK Computer Systems
1 Taumata Rd
Sandringham
Auckland

Ph 620 1356
Fx 620 1336